hippogrif | Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

It rather set up the whole Tarvek is misunderstood theme too. The circus didn't know Tarvek's Very Good Reason for taking Tinka; and they also missed his attempt to make restitution. All they see from their side is theft of a valuable member of their cast.

I have some inchoate ideas floating around on this. It seemed like it was getting off the topic it came up in, about Agatha's sexuality, so I'm giving it it's own.

Voices command things, sometimes irresistibly. This can be because people are wasped, or because the voice comes from a Spark.

I have seen a suggestion on a forum that revenants could resist by deafening themselves either organically or with various kinds of Sparky earplugs. That has never been presented as a possibility in the comics or novels so far. Does that imply that the command wave can bypass actual hearing? Go straight to the brain somehow? It may come up in the future of the series of course.

Is this command wave Tarvek isolates something all or most Sparks have? Different in each Spark clearly, because the different incarnations of Lu have different effects on revenants; but is it what allows Sparks to be so charasmatic? And the wasps refine a particular Sparks command waves to an irresistable compulsion? Are those command waves in the infrasonic, as mentioned with Gil and Wooster? If so, do they go through your bones rather than your ears?

If so, what are the moral implications of Sparky Charisma? Clearly making revenants is bad. Are minions merely half-free revenants? How responsible can you be for something you are born with?

My cultural background includes Christianity; where God is the Word. I haven't studied it deeply; but I expect that this is something they've drawn on, the Word as creation and power, beyond mere hearing. It's simply too interwoven into the US culture to ignore.

Words themselves have always struck me as similar to atoms, with primary meanings like the protons and neutrons, and connotations like the electrons surrounding them as shells of probability subject to their surroundings, joining them to each other to create new and different substances. What this might possibly have to do with GG I don't know; but it's floating in my brain with all these other ideas.

Um. I just realized this isn't precisely about Clockwork Princess, hope that's okay.

Yes, and they see him in the context of his father and family, who really are that dangerous and arbitrary. The circus folks are quite right to take every precaution and avoid Balan's Gap when possible.

It's OK. This is for Princess and also all things GG: I was careful to phrase it that way in the intro so no one felt too obliged to keep things too narrow.

I can't give a full response right now; Have to go do some other Good Things that Need Doing Today. But add in that the Fs are a) apparently quite aware that Sparks are gods/demigods of Europa right now, that b) the concept of "The Divine Spark" floats through all this, c) that the Fs are absolutely, inescapably fantasy-literate, and will know all the concepts of Words of Power and literally chanted "spels," and that they are utterly open about the fact that this is "Science" being conflated with "Magic." See if that gets you any further with the idea of some mysterious power of voice and word.

Meanwhile I have to go read a book for an article.... sigh.

And following on heterodyning, I'm wondering if it's going to turn out to interfere with wasps. It blocks Lucrezia in Agatha's head. When we get Lucrezia's POV when the locket shuts her down, she hears it as a sound - I think they use the word "whine", but that's not too far from "atonal drone".

The counter-argument to this is that all the revenants in Sturmhalten were still rampaging while Agatha's signal was running. On the other hand, the city didn't really go to hell until after it was shut off. I could think of a couple of ways around that.

Fills a lot of time too. My Navy father-in-law does great cross-stitch.

I think they translated the dinner party beautifully, as well. I love how they wrote Tarvek's spit-take (I laughed out loud, even knowing exactly what was coming) and extending the "you're very cute" line was so sweet.

Do you think Anevka underestimated Tarvek as well? I'm really wondering how open he was with her, or whether he was obfuscating with her as well as with everyone else - probably less so, but still keeping things back. I'm not sure we really can tell from the text - she obviously has faith in him, and doesn't seem to dismiss him as simply a tool, but I do wonder who was going to be the dominant power in the long term in their original plan. Not true, I'd be almost certain that each of them intended to be, one way or the other.

I agree, I'm seeing Tarvek less and less as a ruler type as they go on. I could really wonder if "chief advisor" works out to a good place for him - he understands governance, he likes the twisty backroom stuff, but do we really think he has the ruthless side the Baron has? Eh, maybe we just haven't seen it yet, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for the idea of what Tarvek's brooding about - I've been pretty blank on what that was all about. Maybe it's time to think about it some more.

I really do love that they've written one man who thinks he's a villain, but every time push comes to shove, he's trying to protect or save someone, and one who really believes he's a hero but has done some pretty scary and/or questionable acts. Both definitely have means vs. ends issues.

And poor Violetta doesn't get to participate! No wonder she goes on about the pretty dress.

In the footnote about heterodyning (64) - true heterodyning cancels out sounds by producing an opposite. Can it cancel this command wave?

Could Geisters be Elves?

There's a distinct suggestion that Lucrezia was gone a horrifyingly long time in her reaction to Tarvek's question about leaving and not knowing when you'll come back. The Geister's clearly live in an alternate dimension like elves, perhaps time runs differently there?

Traditionally there are male elves; but they usually do have a queen. Tall, slender, uncreative, capable of subverting people's minds? Maybe.

Oh, Summer Court and Winter Court; Skifandrians and Geisters?

I like that idea, makes it very interesting then that it also represses Lu-in-Agatha.

Given how evil Aneveka is; and that he never let her know he built backdoors into her body; I am certain that he obsfucated with her too.

Some of the backdoors thing, though, is just Spark caution. Like the (delightful detail) secret hand gesture to let people know there's a crazy machine, or that great discussion between Gil and Tarvek during the Dingbot fight, about "Oh, that never works!"

If you're the sort of spark who makes a robot without overrides, you just deserve whatever happens next!

Um. I forgot to put in that I wonder if Lu's utter shock at The Baron Got Back, is because Skifander is also in an alternate dimension. Or that she thinks it is, at least.

Another idea, did Klaus have to leave Skifander with Gil, not because anybody there would have killed him; but because Skifander itself was inhospitable to him? Perhaps Zeetha's green hair indicated that she got the proper genes from her mother to thrive; and Gil's brown hair indicated otherwise. Klaus could have been an exception because he's a construct, or because he was willing to shorten his own life, but not his son's.

He brought a changling child back from Faerie.

Still Klaus thought Zeetha was sent to kill Gil. A misunderstanding on his part?

I see him as a ruler -- very much as Andronicus or as Vetinary in Discworld. But that said, I also see him as having mixed feelings about it.

Ruthless? I'm less convinced he's not...though he's still young and squeamish. But he was able to grit his teeth and steel Agatha's voice, trick Anveka and then turn her off, juggle with Lu, plan something with the broadcast beacon, betray Agatha even if it was to rescue her ultimately...

He's got a tough core. He's a bit like a hobbit: there's a core of wiry, resolute strength that allows him to go through with things he clearly does not like if they have to be done.

What we still don't know in full context is what his ultimate motivating concerns are. If he's ultimately most dedicated to saving Europa from itself, he could choose to promote Gil, Agatha, himself, or a complete random new character, based on whomever he assesses as most able to reign, keep the peace, and develop a stable and self-sustaining system.

I do think the Geisters may be a very rough, approximate "elf" parallel. I'm less convinced that they're in an alternate dimension where time runs differently. I agree that Lu's been gone a long time without being human: I'm still guessing she got herself tangled in a machine of some sort. Or possibly in a "Queen Bee." Or both: there's still room for "The Lady of Crystal" to be both Queen Bee and mecha.

I think whatever happened in Skifander it was at least partly a misunderstanding on Klaus' part. Zeetha mainly seems amused at the idea that she might be there to kill Gil. I'd tend to think it's one of Klaus' few, but horrible mistakes: he saw/heard something that led him to jump to a false conclusion.

Having Skifander and Geisterland both prove to be faery parallels works, though, as a literary trope.

There are two changes in the novel that I've noticed so far which I can't tell if are deliberate or errors. Both relate to Tarvek.

The first is that he's described as having blue eyes, when the close-up on the page where he shuts Aneveka down in the comic version clearly shows brown eyes. I tend to think this is an error, as I don't see why blue vs. brown does anything for the plot.

The second is his last name is written "Sturmvarous" in the book and "Sturmvorous" in the comic. This could be significant because "vorous", according to dictionary.com means "eating" or getting sustenence from. I had always liked that bit, thinking that maybe the Storm King would eat the storm to create peace rather than be someone who brings the storm. "Varous", as far as I can tell, means nothing. It could be an important change, or a "spell-check editing" error, where his name got into the spell-checker incorrectly and was changed incorrectly. There are other "spell-check editing errors" or I wouldn't be suggesting this. (Discrete is used for discreet more than once--arrgh1)

Generally, when I'm this confused, I let my undermind sit on it for a week or more; then try to think about it again. I'll probably want to read the book again, and maybe the comic sections too, before I try to make it all coalesce. I get better insights than if I try to force it usually; and it's not like I have a deadline.

Has a thread up about the book, would you like me to link to here or not?

Sure! All comers welcome.

Done.

I think I was conflating "ruler" and "conqueror" when I wrote that. Ruler, definitely. And yes, things are definitely going to get interesting when he either explains himself to someone or further events force him to reveal what he's actually after.

Actually, it's Sturmvoraus most places in the comic, which I think translates as "storm all around" or "storm ahead" or something like that. I tend to see it as a typo, given how many other typos the book had. I was kind of disappointed with their editing.

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Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Re: favorite added scene

More about Voices/Words

Re: favorite added scene

Re: More about Voices/Words

Re: Tarvek's voice

Re: favorite added scene

Re: favorite added scene

Tarvek as ruler

Re: Sturmhalten & Andronicus

Re: More about Voices/Words

Re: Geisters

Re: More about Voices/Words

Aneveka

Re: Aneveka

Re: Geisters

Re: Geisters

Re: Tarvek as ruler

Re: Geisters

Change or Mistake?

Re: More about Voices/Words

Girl Genius Lab

Re: Girl Genius Lab

Re: Girl Genius Lab

Re: Tarvek as ruler

Re: Change or Mistake?