hippogrif | Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Heh, just got to the point in the tropes thread where Greybeard fan is translating Axel as short for Absalom, which is he says means "father is peace"; perhaps that too might point to Higgs as a (grand)son of the Storm King, peacemaker.

Another detail changed - when Wooster picks up the sniper rifle, before Dupree stops him, in the comic he looks to be targeting the Baron's head and states "Gil is not going to like this." In the book, they softened it to stating that he couldn't kill him, but wounding him should be okay. I wonder if the detail was more important than it looked, or if it was just something that made more sense to them this way in retrospect.

Heh, Wooster and Bang were two more characters in Paris at the same time. Man, Gil really needs to talk about what was going on there!

My take on Geister society: bees. [...] I've wondered for some time if they're not a mixed race full symbionts with the wasps.

Hello! Murgatroyd here. I've been lurking for a couple of days ... I had intended to refrain from commenting since I haven't read the book yet, but I'm dying to to add something here that might reinforce your suspicions:

In Othar's Twitter feed, once tweet shortly after Oslaka's death mentioned that they had "no children, of course." Why "of course"? Because Othar didn't want to bring more sparks into the world? Or might it be that normal humans and Geisterdämen aren't interfertile? (Ack! Did I just call Othar "normal"?)

Back to lurking ... Bye!

Agreed, it's hard to tell if it's changed or clarified; Wooster knew Gil would not like his father wounded either, but he made it very clear to Wooster that he *really* didn't want Agatha hurt. Guy was between a rock and a hard place.

Not just Gil, Bang's idiosyncratic view of situations would be amusing. Do you think Wooster knew Gil was a Wulfenbach when he hung out with Gil in Paris, or if Gil knew Wooster was a spy and thought he'd be a useful channel for disinformation and so made sure he got a Wulfenbach job offer? And Zola's view would be fascinating as well; what was she doing with all those Sparks?

I know Clockwork Princess said Gil didn't get to date; but I'm still hoping he got a kiss or two from his disheveled rescuees.

The first novel was Agatha H. and the Airship City, she visited it and was there through most of the action in the book, then left it behind. So the title doesn't seem to be about something that Agatha is directly involved in later, but about a significant learning experience.

Clockwork Princess, on the other hand, I'm not sure why they picked Anevka/Lunevka out of all the places and things Agatha interacted with to put in the title. She is important, she is an ongoing character/antagonist even later in the comic; but she is not really what stands out for me in this part of the story, which means they're pointing her out for a reason. If I was to title the novel, it would have been Summoning Engine or Beacon Engine. Or perhaps something referring to the circus, which runs through the whole novel, unlike Anevka who doesn't show up until halfway through.

She's an important character, and I think putting her in the title of the second novel is a bonk on the head that she is even more important than I thought. I was all set for Zola to take over as lead bad guy, now I don't think so.

For more mundane reasons, Airship City was the middle of the three studio editions that comprised the first novel, and Clockwork Princess is the middle of the three for the second book. It reassociates the new book with their previous work, and face it, airship cities and clockwork princesses are just cool and are likely to interest readers. That would be my guess.

Then push it back a step, assume they plan these things out; and wonder why they chose those names for the middle books? It could be just that they're cool; but generally they work pretty hard to get multiple uses from every word and picture.

I do want you to all know how glad I am you're using this as a place to talk. Sorry I've been out: This week was taxes, a writing assignment with a deadline, and similar chaos.

I'll try to catch up in the next day or so. But--thanks for coming! Thanks for chatting!

Thanks for letting us sit on your couches and eat cookies, don't worry about the hostessing, we all get busy!

It just occurred to me last night that clarifying Tarvek's name as Aaronev Tarvek Sturmvoraus; was another subtle way of showing how bound he is by his lineage. The part of his name that is distinctly his own is surrounded by his father's name. It all goes with his theme of being hidden/hiding.

Hmm. That sounded more profound when I was thinking about it.

Anyway, in contrast Gilgamesh's name is not only not his father's name; but clearly comes from his mother's people and is most definitely his own and not a family name, at least in Europa.

And at the same time, he never uses the Aaronev part. So even if history would record him at Prince Aaronev the seventh, that's not how he identifies himself or how anyone who knows him does. Although, that does parallel his father a bit, given how Lucrezia always calls him Wilhelm.

I agree, this felt more profound until I wrote it down too. Guess it's that kind of a topic.

Has Gil ever used Tarvek's given name to date? He's addressed Gil by nickname twice in the castle, but I don't think Gil's ever done it. (I'm taking that as an indication of how quick he is to forgive and how Tarvek's far more ready to resume a friendship than Gil is, but YMMV)

I also am just beginning to think it's a sign of an amusing/depressing tendency originating with Klaus, of seeing family as far more totally controlling than even Tarvek with his aristocratic bias does. Between writing off all Mongfish (with the possible exception of Theo) and all Sturmvoraus...

Klaus is beginning to sound prejudiced in the most fundamental sense of the word: he treats family as though it's a useful and reliable label or brand name sparing him the need to deeply question how and why each individual functions. Family allows him to prejudge. Gil choosing to distance himself as much as he does with the surname or the full name, but not just "Hey, Tarv," seems possibly indicative of falling into the same mental trap.

He's fighting for his own identity, so that could be it; or, well, lots of families with family names use some sort of different nickname etc to differentiate them. So.

I think Gil has used Tarvek's name; but I'd have to check to be certain. They both certainly use surnames as names; I think it's a guy thing, not necessarily an intimacy thing though.

I'd agree with you on the intimacy thing if it weren't for Tarvek slipping those two times. The two times he addresses "Gil" are when Gil's dying after the SVV and when they discover Von Pinn in the basement. Both times he's concerned and upset. In general, yes, a guy thing, but a guy thing that maintains a distance.

I wonder if that adds another reason why Klaus tests Gil so harshly - he's family, and as he sees it they will be judged as a unit. Gil reflects on him, and can NOT be seen as a weakness. So the testing is not just looking to the future and preparing Gil to take his place, but also maintaining the current family image. Keeping him hidden might have been sparing him for a while.

I am wondering how Theo's family story intertwines with the Heterodyne Boys and/or the other Mongfishes. I suspect we're not really going to get into that, but I would like to know just how long Theo's been under Klaus' care, and I'd love to know who (if anyone) his parents associated with. He does seem to have a special exemption from Klaus' "Mongfish=EVIL" thinking. Uncharitably, maybe because he isn't a girl? Or maybe just because he's been raised on Castle Wulfenbach, but being raised away from family influences doesn't seem to come into Klaus' thinking about Agatha very often (once, if I remember correctly).

Keeping him hidden was certainly sparing him for a while, in many-many ways. Being free of the image and performance issues of being a Wulfenbch in public is certainly one of those ways...though a way more than compensated for by the obligation to hide who he was entirely once Gil was in on the secret.

I keep waiting for Gil and Tarvek to recognize just how profoundly alike they are, and what vital details differentiate between the two, in particular that Gil could for the most part assume Klaus was acting in Gil's best interests, though taking Europa's needs into account. Aaronev for whatever reasons appears to have been entirely dedicated to Lucrezia to the extent that Tarvek could not count on any protection if it conflicted with Aaronev's underlying obsessions. It's got to be deeply disturbing to know your parent really does tend to see you far more as a pawn in a complicated game than as beloved offspring.

Klaus is capable of similar thinking but does appear to have also conveyed real love to Gil, and vice versa. Tarvek, on the other hand, seems to have cared for Aaronev to at least a degree, but always with layers of knowledge that Aaronev could easily turn on him.

I liked how they handed the sequence of Aaronev trying to put Agatha in the chair in the novel. It was more clear that Tarvek was dealing with a powerful and entirely unreliable and violent mad man who happened to be Prince of the domain surrounded by his own men...placing the son in a very weak position, especially given that Tarvek's survival mode for years had been to pass as useless and helpless.

The more I think about this, the more disturbing it gets. Unless Anevka is significantly older than Tarvek, they were likely teenage or near-adult when their mother died, if Anevka had a hand in killing her. On the other hand you have Tarvek claiming that Von Pinn was the only caretaker he had that showed love or kindness - that doesn't sound like something you'd say if you'd been in the care of a loving mother, ever. He also acts unaffected when Anevka brings her up - we know he can hide emotion, but it's as likely that she just wasn't important to him. She also doesn't seem to personally figure in the flow of past events at Sturmhalten. Was she just not there? Was she locked in a tower? Was she just uncaring? There's just no nice answer to this.

Something else that pops out of the age and the new sewer-closing timeline, if one makes a few assumptions: Assume that Tarvek and Gil are the same age so they're 22 "now". Assume that Zoing is Gil's breakthrough construct and occurred soon after Tarvek was sent home - means Tarvek was approximately 8 when sent home to Sturmhalten. Vrin states that they've been under Sturmhalten for 14 years. 8+14=22. So the Geisters arrived at close to the same time that Tarvek came home. Things around Sturmhalten must have been verrrry interesting that year.

I got the impression from Anevka teasing Tarvek about buttoning his shoes together that she was at least three years older than he; quite possibly up to ten years older.

But, yes, the implication that he had no-one to love him at all, even secretly, made my heart go ouch when he said that. No wonder he bonded so strongly to little Gil when they were boys on CW.

Interesting idea, thanks!

It's probably worth noting that for much of the "modern" era the aristocracy largely put their kids in the hands of nurses, governesses, tutors, etc. Which may explain a lot.

That said...

First, yes: Anevak reads as decidedly the elder to me.

Second: every new detail we learn about Tarvek's family and home environment is less reassuring than the last. One thing worth considering if if Mama Sturmvoraus might not have "needed killing," much as Aaronev did...and why.

If nothing else there's every sign Tarvek really did love the original Anevka...and at least some suggestion that the original was pretty scary in her own right, if mecha-Anevka is any reflection of the original at all. If she and Von Pinn were the best Tarvek was ever offered, that's a sad backstory. Live on Castle Wulfenbach, the society of the School kids, and friendship with Gil must have seemed like heaven in comparison--and being tossed out would be a truly Satanic "fall."

One of the reasons I keep hoping against hope they give Tarvek a reasonably happy future is that they've given him such a brutally UNhappy past, and a pretty ragged present. I'd love to see him make it to safe harbor.

One wonders if the reason Tarvek's entirely unshocked by Mama's death is because at the time he saw Anevka as the "protecting angel," acting to save herself (and by extension Tarvek) from someone even worse than Aaronev.

I would guess that many of those nurses, tutors etc. did give their young charges at least some affection; it's hard not to love little kids. So it's tough on Tarvek that none of his did (were allowed to?).

Interesting idea that he may have seen Anevka as a "protecting angel"; not a particularly loving one though. Perhaps that's another reason he worked so hard to save her, protect her.

Agatha will do her best to give him a happy future, not necessarily the one he most desires with her; but she has real affection for him and she would be a mama bear to protect him from harm. Plus, the Foglios *like* their characters and have created an optimistic world, I think he will have a good future, they just don't want to give anything away yet. I will continue to trust them.

I agree that Tarvek's been plotting revolution-- but I also maintain, as I always have, that he's been way too idealistic. He's young and the chance to succeed at this has been sometime in the misty future for him. The book shows his thinking as appropriately young and unformed, which I like. I can't wait to see what the text book does with what he's thinking about when he says "I wish to brood in peace."

I'd been thinking about that. I see 3 possibilities:
Selinkov married Aaronev's sister. In which case, we have a female Stormvarous out there running free, since Selinkov's wife is alleged to be still extant.

Aaronev married Selinkov's sister, in which case Selinkov's of the Storm King lineage.

Or, Aaronev and Selinkov married two sisters, both of the Storm King lineage, and only one of the sisters managed to procreate, or at least produce a boy child (Tarvek's mother)

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Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

Wooster detail

Re: Geisters

Re: Wooster detail

Significance of the Title?

Re: Significance of the Title?

Re: Significance of the Title?

Sorry I've been busy...

Re: Sorry I've been busy...

Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

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Re: Tarvek Detail

Theo

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

Re: Gil's Age

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

Re: Geisters

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

Re: T. Stormboy

Re: Mom Sturmvarous