hippogrif | Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Hmmm. I felt that they ended up writing Agatha as quite honestly infatuated with Lars...enough so that if he'd made a move she'd have been quite besotted, at least until she either found he wasn't able to keep up with her, or simply matured out of it. But that while it was happening it was quite deep.

But I also felt they wrote at least some of it as, yes, Lars being a non-Father playing the role of Dashing Lord and Spark Bill Heterodyne, love's young dream for the Heterodyne Story fangirl, barring the few who fell for Barry or Klaus, or who were oriented such that they fell for Lucrezia. She was in love with the role and the play as much as with the actor who played opposite her.

(Laughs) Now THAT would be interesting: to find out which "character" she was mushy about in the original books and novels she read all unknowing. If it was either of the two boys she's got to be making some radical changes in her existing fantasy life, poor girl.

So near as I can recall, she just sort of overall likes Gil, when she doesn't want to kill him. I do remember she does find his touch all tingly. Well, who wouldn't, after all! (LOL) With Tarvek voice is a definite specific, though: yes, his voice hots her out for sure, and no, I don't recall that Gil's does.

I was interested that Tarvek was established for sure as liking music, being a musician himself, and having such a fine ear he could actually hear a difference between her own heterodyning and that of the dingbots. That more than made up for their inability to draw a possible heterodyne "note" in the scene between Tarvek and Vielchen: they found a way to establish a similar sensitivity without the visuals. Which makes me think it is indeed important: they made certain they wouldn't lose it.

Gil gets kisses. Tarvek, however, gets hugs, embraces, leaning...and where many who read the comic saw her failing to react, in the book it was clear she and he were both aware, and both reacted strongly...if with control and restraint. There's no question but that there's something there.

I, too, regret Gil having gotten no dating in while in Paris--though it does suggest that if Lucrezia is right about Tarvek, we're dealing with three virgins, all lacking much experience. Even more I want to know what Gil felt he was up to in Paris: it really intrigues me that Klaus was out of the loop, and it really intrigues me that from the description it was definitely not all Zola-escapades. I'm currently inclined to think Gil was being a Gentleman Adventurer! Ho yes, to quote our Jaeger friends! XD

Yes, in a book they could make Lu naked and flagrant about it. They did a better job of showing her cleverness, and how dangerous she was this time, too. And they established that while Tarvek is definitely attracted to Agatha, he's just as clearly repelled by Lu-in-Agatha. Getting the body without the original occupant would not appeal to him at all, as written, which is a great relief--and lends credence to his later claim in the comic that he can indeed tell when it's Lu and when it's Agatha... at least he can if he's given time.

I tend to see Gil as the first great hit of attraction, but they're separated before she can explore that. Then Lars is the first big high school crush, and that again is ended before they can explore further. Tarvek's the slower-blooming relationship, and he's a quieter, more complicated attraction: something she has to grow in to. But then Gil's back, and the poor girl's caught between two "perfectly good suitors." They ARE both perfectly good suitors, and she responds to both...but they're different, her reactions are different, and the ultimate outcomes would be different.

Assuming Tarvek gets to survive, I'm very curious if and wen they'll finally give those two at least one real kiss/make-out. My sense is that she's going to be allowed a true growing-up, and to truly explore both options, which would explain why in the comic they made sure that after Gil's Big Goodbye Kiss they made good and sure to establish that the UST is still there and strong between Agatha and Tarvek...it's something they have to explore someday.

Huh. It occurs to me it's also important that Agatha even got a bit of a rush from Othar's one kiss. Yes, he's mad, but, well, he really can be charming, for a complete lunatic. And hes' very handsome, of his type.

I was glad to see that one kiss on her cheek flustered her and mattered.

If you find more, let us know. I'm sort of playing hooky right now, and can't afford to add one more layer of archive binge to my work load at the moment, but I am really curious what you find.

I think they did an all around better job with Lu in this: she's scarier, smarter, creepier, more dangerous, and more decidedly sick but powerful.

I was also intrigued that the words Agatha chose to describe Lu-in-her-mind were "alien" and "mad." I'm waiting to see how many ways that's accurate.

(Shrug) Fandoms all get wankers as well as saner if equally obsessive wonks (says the ultimate Tarvek wonk). But Tarvek really did manage to generate outright chittering hatred from some folks, and a LOT of people who were sure from the very start that what they thought they saw was the only possible interpretation. Some were, shall we say, both partisan and very rude about anyone who suggested that there might be more going on?

The thing is, I do think I see what happened; the Fs were trying so hard to present mysteries and do a slow developing plot, relationship, and thematic line that they were unable to reckon with the real-time responses of fans who were seeing it in page at a time peep-show format, who adored Gil, and who were making some very false assumptions about the form and genre conventions that would pertain. The result was that many, many people left no room in their textual processing for the eternal question mark, or the new fact that might adjust their thinking. And many fans love nothing better than to cheer for their team.

The novel is letting them try to compensate for the blindness and factionalism that did grow up.

She obviously finds Tarvek comforting, and I'm pretty sure uses that exact word in the novel. Gil is exciting, an adventure, but that's a bit scary. Tarvek is comforting, which is plenty seductive in its own way, but might not be as exciting. (A gross over-simplification, I'm sure)

I'm crossing my fingers that Tarvek gets a "you're alive!" kiss when Agatha sees him again, although depending on the circumstances I could definitely imagine plenty of other reactions. It should be interesting and informative.

(Chuckle) Yes. Comforting. Also tingly. I tend to read this and think that Gil's your first ride on a roller coaster, assuming you like roller coasters. Tarvek's your first ride on a gondola at midnight on the canals in Venice.

The only voice in the first book that I can see she has an interesting reaction to is, of all people, Theo's. He has "a deep voice that made Agatha's ears tingle." which is totally not what I heard him as in my head. Oh well. Gil is all touch and scent and facial expressions. They don't seem to have made much of voices in the first novelization, not even mentioning anything odd when Gill chews the scenery at the university.

Interesting. And Lars' bed smelled masculine. I'll have to think about that.

Here's the thing: they're definitely writing two distinct relationships with the two boys. She's actually better at communicating with Tarvek: they fight less, talk more, and seem to understand each other better. She turns to Tarvek when she wants comfort or reassurance. The novel does make it clear she also finds him not just cute, but sexy...but it's a dark chocolate thing, not a brass band: seductive and lower key than Gil's Big Brass Band effect on her.

Gil's sexy, fun to work with and fight with, charming, maddening, fascinating, confusing. She and he love to spark together, that's really clear. They're the two hot-heads, they're both inclined to action. He's a sunshine lover: if Tarvek's smoke and candlelight, Gil's rainbows and parades.

If Tarvek and Agatha do get that kiss, I am not sure how either will react to it...and frankly, from what I think I see, his "best" kiss may prove to be something slow, sexy and quiet when they're neither of them under too much other pressure.

I felt a little for the poor boy when he was talking to Violetta after The Great Kiss. It nearly melted his glasses... and he felt he had nothing to offer that could top it.

That does make me tend to think Lu is right about his lack of experience, and feel strongly that he still thinks Gil's got more practice in than he really does. It sounds too much like an inexperienced and insecure young man who figures he's just not in the same ballpark: between sensing that Agatha's more interested in Gil, and fearing he's not nothing to match his rival's abilities, he's counting himself out of the running.

We also get a lot more information about Geisters.

They have multiple, probably non-overlapping castes. You can tell how tight the castes are when the cell Geisters refuse to even try to use the lockpick, as they aren't artisens.

Then the half comment about not even their daughters being exactly like their mothers; makes me wonder if they're parthenogenic.

Their Goddess clearly has several aspects and they seem to be quite willingly subservient, even when she looks like she might kill them all. The segue from the End of the World to the start of a new world was rather disconcerting to me. It must be a well-established possibility in their mythos. Sort of a The King is Dead, Long Live the King! type of thing.

I was dismayed when Vrin stated that they failed to protect the Holy Child despite knowing when, who, how and with what abilities they would be attacked. It smacks of more time travel to me, and that's just not something I'm fond of. I also wish she'd given some detail on who exactly did the attacking since she knew who it was. Must be a deliberately hidden card. I would guess Bill and Barry, but GG is full of wonderful surprises.

And Geister cheese! Love Tarvek learning about it.

Wonder if Othar tried to make Gil a sidekick? And Gil refused vehemently enough to persuade Othar he was irredeemable?

It would give all three of them something else to bond over, refusing Othar's job offer.

Yes. Very interesting.

My take on Geister society: bees. Granted, I've thought that for awhile and said it before, so I'm pre-biased in favor of that perception, but the daughters-not-sons thing, the rigid roles, the inability to think very creatively even presented with the facts in advance...they all make me think of a hive.

I've wondered for some time if they're not a mixed race full symbionts with the wasps. My take for some time is that somehow Lu got herself linked into something that allowed her to shanghai the Giesters for her own purpose, stepping into the Goddess role.

I don't know if she just lucked out and had the right vocal frequency to match their Lady's natural voice, or if something else went on. But... I still think the Geisters have a lot in common with bugs.

And, yes. The cheese. Reminds me of a story of my great grandmother and a blue-bottle fly in the soup. She was very unhappy to learn about that fly just a bit too late.

Snerk. Yeah. That could have happened.

(Now imagining Gil, Tarvek and Agatha on a cold night with a big bottle of wine, sulking together. That stoooooopid Othar!)

One thing I really appreciated as the resident myth-freak and the one who started out the analysis on the Sparks being "like Gods." I really, really loved that they actually made that comparison in the book.

(gloat-gloat) I felt so vindicated!!

It occurred to me today to wonder if the reason Tarvek's voice affected Agatha so much, is that he was low-level sparking the whole time. Lar's voice is his madboy voice, when they're sparking. Gil's voice is described as having, I think, infrasonics when he threatens Wooster.

So Gil's voice doesn't affect her muc in CW because he's safe and doesn't need to be sparking except when they're in the falling machine. Whereas Tarvek's in constant danger in Sturmhalten and has his spark up all the time to help him react to danger, essentially he sparks conspiracy making and detection. Maybe how he got such good control of it for the most part.

It sounds a bit silly now.

There were all sorts of little clarifying details I liked with the two boys. I'll probably think of more over time, but tonight I'm thinking about:

Gil's reactions to Klaus sending him out after Agatha. Anger, reluctance, but not serious resistance. But he does have the very beginning of a revelation: his father not only absolutely can arrest anyone he likes under the pretext of keeping the peace, but he has. Not often--it's clear that Klaus usually uses that ploy for perfectly legit reasons. But it's also clear that it's sort of nudging at Gil that Klaus doesn't always use it for its presented purpose, and that there are no checks and balances to stop Klaus or him from misuse.

I think that's important...the start of a moral arc for him, that the current plot arc is likely to push further. Now Gil is simply and absolutely at the other end of the rope -- innocent but with no recourse, framed, but with no court of appeal.

Tarvek: An important detail added in the novel is in the rephrasing of Tarvek's Madboy rant to Agatha...who turns out to be Lu. He doesn't just say he wants to take over Europa, he says he wants to bring about "true stability." To me that's a critical clarification...his goal is to bring something he feels Klaus has not brought, a truly stable political structure. The story so far suggests Tarvek is right: that the stability in Europa is imposed by force, and only holds so long as one strong player holds the reins....and can fall even then, given a sharp shove.

Whether Tarvek is the right man for the job is another question, but it makes it that much more clear that his goals are not simply power-hunger. They may be vain and delusional: that has to be seen, yet. But they're valid goals in response to a real problem.

One of my current guesses growing from reading the book is that the time after Gil and Tarvek bicker during the repairs, when Tarvek goes to be unhappy and brood alone, is that his big revelation is that his plan had been to use the wasps if he had to to create a stable Europa...

But that Gil's enough better than he thought to be an attractive Heir after all, and that he could avoid the wasp problem entirely by promoting Gil as Klaus' successor, and pushing Klaus out. Gil's just been spouting off the sort of concerns for the people that I'm more and more suspicious matter to Tarvek, he's trained, he's got his own sort of legitimacy, and he could rule a stable Europa, especially if he could be brought to take advice.

Now THAT would make Tarvek unhappy and broody. He'd have to give up his own ambitions, and the hero role, he'd probably have to give away a lot of the secrets he's fought so hard to gain, and he'd have to give them to Gil, who's his rival in EVERYTHING.

It would fit far better than a sudden revelation that wasping people is bad: there's really no sign he was ever actually indifferent to that. It would match the dialog while leaving Gil room for his own doubts. And it would explain even more why Tarvek's been so willing to go the last mile to save Gil. For all the old friendship, Tarvek's started protecting Gil in the same way he protects Agatha, with a dedication and fierce commitment...and unlike with Agatha, it has to override a very real and ongoing conflict between the boys.

Another point is that he does NOT want Gil wasped. Now part of that will be to keep him out of Lu's hands. But it also keeps Gil out of Tarvek's own control. It's always important to remember that Tarvek has the technology to capitalize on slaver wasp tech. If he were mean and greedy and nasty enough, he'd let Gil be wasped in the knowledge that he could command his rival from there on in. But he wants Gil free.

There are practical reasons as well as honorable ones, but it's still interesting to watch.

Gil comes across more fatalistic and more clearly gritty in this: he's more decidedly tougher and a bit less squeaky clean. Tarvek, conversely, comes across a bit shinier. Both clearly love Agatha. Both just as clearly could be experiencing first love, but not necessarily permanent love: that's left open, which I think is good.

Tarvek does clearly lie in this: that's easier to check than previously. But his lies are for more obvious and sensible reasons, and are far less easily mistaken for "he'd do anything at any moment to gain power." Lu mistakes him for that at first, and is just beginning to revise her opinion as she begins to realize there's steel under the superficial fluff.

I'd always thought of Sturmhalten as the center of a small principality. I was rather astonished when it was described as the place that stopped the Heterodyne in the prologue. It must be a much stronger castle than my initial impression; bringing Tarvek's base more in line with Agatha's Castle and Gil's Castle. Riddled with secret doors and passageways. I'd love to get a tour of it during peacetime.

And Andronicus, Tarvek all grown up and dangerous, full of twisty backroom deals. Those two would get along just fine.

I think they're doing something with sound/voice that's bigger than just Agatha finding people sexy. I find it a bit hard to believe a non-spark can imitate Spark subsonics. That just feels off. But there's something going on with what voices do.

There's obviously Lu/Agatha's ability to command the wasps. There's Agatha's ability to heterodyne, which requires hearing as well as vocal production: she has to hear what she's aiming for to hit it, that's why deaf and tone-deaf people can only sing a tune with tech-help to allow them to see when they're frequency-matching. There's the hint that Tarvek can hear very specifically, and thus possibly reproduce Agatha's heterodyning. There's the fact that he's the one who figures out how to reproduce Lu/Agatha's voice, and that he manages to improve it beyond his own expectations for Anevka.

It will be very interesting to see what they do with that.

Good catch. THANKS! XD

LOL. Yes. Sturmhalten is much more clearly a regional power, not merely a very common Eastern European armpit principality.

Tarvek's definitely, absolutely Andronicus' descendent. Oh, and did you notice the fashion sense is apparently a family thing? I was amused. Anevka and Selnikov are also both very concerned with their toggery: a family that likes to dress nice, and play the part in style.

Inviting a potential enemy to dine? Make them comfortable by offering a Death Ray! It's in all the best Sparky Ettiquette books.

Another lovely detail was the one about Dimo knitting decorative socks, I really hope we get to see some of these in the comics! Maybe he'll make a pair for Agatha, I seem to recollect that her spiffy white and red pair got torn up or lost somehow.

Oh, lordy, yes. And it's good research, too: a lot of soldiers and sailors took up knitting and fancy knitting: it provided necessary gear and the occasional salable goods, and was easily portable.

Tarvek is a *gentleman* rather than a *gentleman adventurer.* He's also written very clearly as a gentle man. A point I melted over. Even when ready to lynch his father, and coping with far too much new information, he's gentle cleaning off Agatha's face from the torte, among other instances...

A gentle person, when possible. His gentleness with Tinka also melted me.

His feeling of responsibility for Tinka and to the Circus for taking her were to me the big, flashing signs in the comic that here was a good guy. Watch how people treat the powerless, and you'll know their character.

Yes. It's part of what set red alerts off for me later, when the story "framed" him as a rotter. He just failed to make sense as an ethically black or even null character. He was too clearly committed to what we'd think of s "good."

I hadn't noticed the family fashion sense, that's cute!

Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

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