Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

[hippogrif]

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

Comments

[hippogrif]

There were all sorts of little clarifying details I liked with the two boys. I'll probably think of more over time, but tonight I'm thinking about:

Gil's reactions to Klaus sending him out after Agatha. Anger, reluctance, but not serious resistance. But he does have the very beginning of a revelation: his father not only absolutely can arrest anyone he likes under the pretext of keeping the peace, but he has. Not often--it's clear that Klaus usually uses that ploy for perfectly legit reasons. But it's also clear that it's sort of nudging at Gil that Klaus doesn't always use it for its presented purpose, and that there are no checks and balances to stop Klaus or him from misuse.

I think that's important...the start of a moral arc for him, that the current plot arc is likely to push further. Now Gil is simply and absolutely at the other end of the rope -- innocent but with no recourse, framed, but with no court of appeal.

Tarvek: An important detail added in the novel is in the rephrasing of Tarvek's Madboy rant to Agatha...who turns out to be Lu. He doesn't just say he wants to take over Europa, he says he wants to bring about "true stability." To me that's a critical clarification...his goal is to bring something he feels Klaus has not brought, a truly stable political structure. The story so far suggests Tarvek is right: that the stability in Europa is imposed by force, and only holds so long as one strong player holds the reins....and can fall even then, given a sharp shove.

Whether Tarvek is the right man for the job is another question, but it makes it that much more clear that his goals are not simply power-hunger. They may be vain and delusional: that has to be seen, yet. But they're valid goals in response to a real problem.

One of my current guesses growing from reading the book is that the time after Gil and Tarvek bicker during the repairs, when Tarvek goes to be unhappy and brood alone, is that his big revelation is that his plan had been to use the wasps if he had to to create a stable Europa...

But that Gil's enough better than he thought to be an attractive Heir after all, and that he could avoid the wasp problem entirely by promoting Gil as Klaus' successor, and pushing Klaus out. Gil's just been spouting off the sort of concerns for the people that I'm more and more suspicious matter to Tarvek, he's trained, he's got his own sort of legitimacy, and he could rule a stable Europa, especially if he could be brought to take advice.

Now THAT would make Tarvek unhappy and broody. He'd have to give up his own ambitions, and the hero role, he'd probably have to give away a lot of the secrets he's fought so hard to gain, and he'd have to give them to Gil, who's his rival in EVERYTHING.

It would fit far better than a sudden revelation that wasping people is bad: there's really no sign he was ever actually indifferent to that. It would match the dialog while leaving Gil room for his own doubts. And it would explain even more why Tarvek's been so willing to go the last mile to save Gil. For all the old friendship, Tarvek's started protecting Gil in the same way he protects Agatha, with a dedication and fierce commitment...and unlike with Agatha, it has to override a very real and ongoing conflict between the boys.

Another point is that he does NOT want Gil wasped. Now part of that will be to keep him out of Lu's hands. But it also keeps Gil out of Tarvek's own control. It's always important to remember that Tarvek has the technology to capitalize on slaver wasp tech. If he were mean and greedy and nasty enough, he'd let Gil be wasped in the knowledge that he could command his rival from there on in. But he wants Gil free.

There are practical reasons as well as honorable ones, but it's still interesting to watch.

Gil comes across more fatalistic and more clearly gritty in this: he's more decidedly tougher and a bit less squeaky clean. Tarvek, conversely, comes across a bit shinier. Both clearly love Agatha. Both just as clearly could be experiencing first love, but not necessarily permanent love: that's left open, which I think is good.

Tarvek does clearly lie in this: that's easier to check than previously. But his lies are for more obvious and sensible reasons, and are far less easily mistaken for "he'd do anything at any moment to gain power." Lu mistakes him for that at first, and is just beginning to revise her opinion as she begins to realize there's steel under the superficial fluff.

Tarvek as ruler

[claudeng]

I agree, I'm seeing Tarvek less and less as a ruler type as they go on. I could really wonder if "chief advisor" works out to a good place for him - he understands governance, he likes the twisty backroom stuff, but do we really think he has the ruthless side the Baron has? Eh, maybe we just haven't seen it yet, but I'm not sure.

Thanks for the idea of what Tarvek's brooding about - I've been pretty blank on what that was all about. Maybe it's time to think about it some more.

I really do love that they've written one man who thinks he's a villain, but every time push comes to shove, he's trying to protect or save someone, and one who really believes he's a hero but has done some pretty scary and/or questionable acts. Both definitely have means vs. ends issues.

Re: Tarvek as ruler

[hippogrif]

I see him as a ruler -- very much as Andronicus or as Vetinary in Discworld. But that said, I also see him as having mixed feelings about it.

Ruthless? I'm less convinced he's not...though he's still young and squeamish. But he was able to grit his teeth and steel Agatha's voice, trick Anveka and then turn her off, juggle with Lu, plan something with the broadcast beacon, betray Agatha even if it was to rescue her ultimately...

He's got a tough core. He's a bit like a hobbit: there's a core of wiry, resolute strength that allows him to go through with things he clearly does not like if they have to be done.

What we still don't know in full context is what his ultimate motivating concerns are. If he's ultimately most dedicated to saving Europa from itself, he could choose to promote Gil, Agatha, himself, or a complete random new character, based on whomever he assesses as most able to reign, keep the peace, and develop a stable and self-sustaining system.

Re: Tarvek as ruler

[claudeng]

I think I was conflating "ruler" and "conqueror" when I wrote that. Ruler, definitely. And yes, things are definitely going to get interesting when he either explains himself to someone or further events force him to reveal what he's actually after.

[bunnyjadwiga]

I keep having this belief that Tarvek may have been manuevering to wasp sparks (like Othar) and troublesome/evil rulers (like the Knights of Jove, his family, etc.) in order to stop them from being evil/oppressing others. It's a common enough variety of magical thinking, even in ethics.

Tarvek is still portrayed as caring about people, in general. It's also been clearly laid out in the novelization that as long as rulers under the Pax Transylvania don't cause trouble beyond their borders, Klaus doesn't care if they oppress their own people. Is this what Tarvek wants to correct?

Or am I reading too much into it?

[hippogrif]

Klaus has limits. Frex, no explicit slavery, though he's turning a blind eye to a lot of less explicit slavery. Regarding Tarvek's plan: I think it's pretty definite that the first aspect was to beat his father and the Knights of Jove to the punch on existing wasped non-sparks...but most particularly the Geisters. There are several points in the novel when that's clarified enough to make it a safe bet. The fact that Tarvek grew up in the middle of an arms race aimed directly at the existing wasped folks makes that a reasonable goal.

That he also has the goal of undoing wasping is also clarified within reasonable limits...so he's got at least some palliative ambitions all along, not just after Castle Heterodyne. The ends don't always justify the means. However, I do think he may well have felt the only means he had were less than ideal...and that the ends were too vital to be finicky in the short-term.

His ultimate falling in love with Agatha is because she's willing to commit suicide to save Europa. (Gloat-gloat, I DID predict this one! Gleee!!!!) That further pushes me into the belief that he's been an idealist on the subject of trying to do good all along...just in a situation where what he sees as possible is very limited...and colored by his sense that Klaus isn't a much better answer than his father or Lu. He SEEMS to be trying to think outside the existing box. We just don't know quite how, yet.

It's possible he wanted to wasp "bad" Sparks. It's too early to know, dang it. My own sense, though, is that he planned to use existing wasping to get some control over the Geisters, learn enough of the tech to UNDO the existing wasping, and proceed from there. The risk of Klaus actually being wasped by Lucrezia would have seemed vanishingly small at the time he put it forward.

But the thing is, we don't know. Even after the novel, while we can now be more sure he's "good" for at least one plausible value of goodness, we don't now what tools he intended to use, or how he intended to use them, or for how long, or how utterly naive he was being in his planning. Without those all we can do is suspect he meant well for the most part.