hippogrif | Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

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Ok, I think we've just been given fairly good grounds for assuming that Tarvek's been a "true revolutionary" for some time...or that, possibly, be becomes one as a result of this story. But I'm betting on the prior possibility.

Those of you who know me already know I thought this possible, based on his behavior and comments here: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091012, and because of his more reliable areas of concern and dedication. He's definitely upset about Klaus' status as an illegitimate ruler, he seems to honestly see the Storm King as an important predecessor for more than pure politics, and I long felt that his reaction to Agatha might well be based on her willingness to sacrifice her own life for the good of Europa... even if he did sabotage her effort. On top of that we never did find out what he saw as his "work" to do in Paris...one of the few places in Europa not utterly under Klaus' command. Tarvek, to me, seemed plausible as a serious, philosophy driven revolutionary, blending "resistance" elements with "aristo duty" elements in odd and fun ways.

I also always suspected they were playing a few "Percy Blakeny/Scarlet Pimpernel" games with his foppishness, dress sense, and cover role as the utter incompetent. The idea of him working not just to save his own life, but to further the revolution and "save Europa" always seemed in keeping with the Fs' sense of humor, and with Tarvek's personality.

The current novel seems, to me, to actually stress that more clearly. The Foglios write him as clearly making his final shift to loving Agatha as a response to her recording of her plea to Klaus and her willingness to die to save the nation. Again, yes, he overturns that, but for reasons he never gets to explain to her in full.

He's also shown a bit more fully moving into his title and position, and definitely reading to Agatha as taking his responsibilities very seriously indeed. "Defender of Balan's Gap and Protector of the East," as I recall. (My Kindle is recharging in the other room and I'm too lazy to be sure I got that word for word.)

Finally, there's the heading quote for the final chapter...an impassioned call for Europa to rise up in the memory of the Heterodyne Boys and turn back the "monsters" who have arisen. Very revolutionary prose, of its type. It even made me think a few "Give me liberty or give me death" thoughts. It's attributed to... one "T. Stormboy", and is published in "The Paris Review of Sorrowful Reflections Without Merit"...at least, that's what Babelfish and my remnant of high school French make of "La Revue Parisienne des Reflexions Chagrines et Sans Merite" (accents missing, due to utter failure to know how to insert them in this program).

The sentiments, the tie to Paris (and we already know Tarvek keeps up with Parisian journals that interest him because he mentions one here: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091016), and the rather obvious nom de resistance, combined with everything else we've already seen, and that the current novel reveals about his personality as seen by Agatha, seems to add up to Tarvek having been functioning as a real and committed revolutionary for some time...and very possibly with real personal dedication, not just political ambition.

Anyone else see that as a real option at this point?

Did I read the passage wrong, or did Anevka pretty much admit to having killed their mother?

Anevka folded her arms. "Is maudlin sentimentality supposed to make me feel guilty about killing you? Because if it didn't work for Mummy --"

And Tarvek didn't skip a beat in replying. Man, are they ever one messed-up family.

Oh, definitely. At least, her own mother. I'm of the opinion they have the same mother, but the option remains open that they're half-brother and sister. But Anevka pretty much leaves the strong impression she killed "Mummy."

I LIKE that. I thought that passage was odd and scanned oddly but didn't know what to make of it. If it is him, I wonder when it's supposed to be published - something he's already done, or something he will do?

My one halfhearted gripe with the novel as a whole is that it undermined Tarvek masquerading as the incompetent fop. Vrin said something about him being annoying but spineless, but most of the time the reader sees Tarvek through Lucrezia's pov, who's seeing right through his mask. So we don't really get the effect of the mask in the first place. The reason it's halfhearted is the other half of me loves all the new Tarvek description.

I wonder whether Selnikov's being an uncle is actually relevant to anything, or whether it's just extra interesting information. Given how Anevka refers to Lady Selnikov (distant, less like a blood relation) and that Selnikov calls Aaronev his brother-in-law, my take is he's likely their mother's brother.

Agreed, but somewhat quietly. My take is that they figured that at this point the gig is about up anyway, and that by giving us more insight they could counterbalance some of the real in-fandom problems that developed as a result of leaving him looking like a complete crumb-bum. Even after years of them slowly pulling back the veil, there are still people who are certain he's a complete rotter.

I know why they did it the way they did the first time. But I also suspect that this was a good and reasonable time to provide a corrective, as the secret's less secret now in any case. It allowed them to do a number of things, including what you mention below: establish Anevka far more clearly as a dangerous villainess for some time.

Me, I'm curious whether she dinged Mummy before or after her robotification.

(Considers) I'm not really sure. He's said to look related to the Sturmvoraus, which would suggest that he's related to Aaronev. And he appears to be a Knight of Jove, which also looks suggestive of the Sturmvoraus.

Tarvek says that the Sturmvoraus have been protecting the lineage of Valois for ten generations. That would suggest that the Valois bloodline has been at the very least guarded by the Sturmvoraus, and possibly propagated through marriages. If Tarvek's line is anything like many European royal families, the interconnections and back-breeding could be rather intense.

One of the things that I really liked in the book is that it cleared up something that's been a bit of a fan arguing point: that Agatha's really, honestly attracted to both Lars and Tarvek, and is definitely quite infatuated with Lars.

There's been a tendency to treat Agatha as though she were romantically wasped, and totally fixated on Gil from the first interactions on: his, body, soul, mind, and spirit, with no possible other options.

The novel made it far more clear that she's going through a very normal sexual maturation, finding more than one young man honestly and seriously attractive, and being willing to explore the options with men other than Gil. It doesn't invalidate her real attraction to and affection for Gil, but it makes her much less of a romance-zombie, and much more of a real, autonomous, living breathing girl growing into her own adulthood.

I do want to add that "revolutionary," "resistance fighter," and "conservative aristo idealist" all blur together in this situation. He's a revolutionary because he's rebelling against Klaus, a resistance fighter for the same reason, and a conservative aristo idealist because he seems to possibly be allied with an old and romantic view of the aristocrat as both ruler and servant to the people, whose lives and rights he defends.

Given that Klaus HAS been trying to unravel the old aristo system, and has used a number of questionable methods for doing so, the Fifty Families have some legitimate beefs, for all their own flaws and failings. So Tarvek seeing himself as both defending Europa and its people, and also defending the Fifty Families and their way of life, makes sense -- as does Percy Blakeny saving the French aristos from The Terror and Madame Guillotine.

Another interesting point is that Klaus indicates that Gil was trying to keep his Paris activities from Klaus. Or at least, Klaus thought so. Given the already confirmed issues of correspondence between Gil and his old friends on Castle Wulfenbach, one does wonder if some third party was also interfering with Klaus' information stream.

One of the footnotes suggests that Gil was very active in a range of Hero-style activities: busting up bank robberies among other things. (chuckle) And the closest he got to dating was the scantily clad maidens associate with those events.

That suggests that, contra my prior speculations, Gil may not have been doing undercover work for Klaus. But, on the other had, it opens up the possibility of Gil trying to test himself as a Heterodyne Boy style hero and general Gentleman Adventurer. Which might explain a bit more of the hostility between him and Othar, if both were bucking for the same treasured status, and Othar kept not only intruding, but casting Gil as the villain instead.

I can see a lot of reasons for Gil to do that: Klaus is expecting a lot of him and he wants to know if he can live up to at least what Klaus was as a young man and associate of the HBs; Gil wants to enjoy some time putting himself at risk in ways Klaus would have violently disliked; Gil wanted to get his own view of the world; Gil actually hoped for a bit more girl action than he got, and didn't want Papa and Papa's spies looking in on him. There may be more.

I am still not completely sure Klaus didn't give him some tasks. But it seems less likely if Klaus felt left out of the loop regarding Paris.

I like your Othar theory - because we know Othar would be completely condescending about the whole business, and not being taken seriously is definitely one of Gil's Berserk Buttons. Could definitely bleed over into what Tarvek experienced in Paris as well.

I'm seriously itching to know what Paris looked like from Gil's POV. I'm quite sure it's going to add a lot to our overall picture of who was doing what where, and why, with whom.

It may help us that Gil's now with Bang, who shared that time with him. They may manage to discuss old times together, just as Bang did when mentioning (confirming) that during the Olde Days Gil did indeed appear to hate Tarvek.

At this point it looks like yes, though we still don't know what his "plan" was for her broadcast device.

I have to give up on Tarvek being the one to get the circus out of town with a payment and "Noblesse Oblige." That appears to be Aaronev. So I lose a minor Moxana proof point on that, and a larger proof of character, but make it up with the fact that Tarvek is the one who then had the circus stopped outside of town so that it could meet Agatha when he got her out.

Of even more interest is the fact that he kept them there after Lu was downloaded. Yes, he was very busy, but he continued to keep them there for what appears to be several days. That suggests that even once he realized Agatha was alive in there, he intended for her to have a place to flee to once they were out.

That, combined with his own internal dialog when shown, leaves me pretty certain he was indeed trying to save Agatha, and not just so he could have a cat's paw, either.

His interactions with her suggest that, yes, he does know the value of her position as Heterodyne Heir, but that he's honestly most interested in her as peer and person, and most interested in rescuing her because he cares and wants her to be free.

Well, when Sun revives his head in the Hospital, he says something about his lands and title going to his nephew. Perhaps that's Tarvek?

That would be very interesting. Or it could indicate one of those other contenders Tarvek mentioned to Gil. The ones who would make Gil wish he'd stuck with Tarvek...

I liked a lot of the little bits they added in, but I think my single favorite is the line where Tarvek offers to build Agatha a death ray when he's trying to send her to safety. Spark-romantic and just what she was wishing someone would do.

Oh yes! I was thinking I needed to go back to the comic and see if I'd missed it there. I think that's where she starts to really think him special, not just cute.

Undoubtably, but it's a nice unobtrusive set-up if it does become important later. It's also mentioned a couple of times that Lady Selnikov is in Paris, I'm wondering if that's another quiet hook to hold things together later.

Oh, that would be very nice. And it would provide a good door into the various factions of the conspiracy.

Yesssssss. Though I'm mutely admiring of one change they made: I missed very much having Tarvek leave orders that Agatha was to have her clothes back, but realized as I considered it that they had so many other, less comic-adapted ways to indicate his concern that instead they could convert that moment into a clear indication that all Sturmhalten was wasped. That's REALLY good artistic selection--they lost something, but it was something more than compensated for elsewhere, and in losing it they improved overall continuity and strengthened their own background narrative.

That scene is what I always thought it was intended to be, but clearer and more complex. I'm very, very happy with that. And I agree with Claudeng: it's the perfect sparky offer, and it shows Agatha a lot about Tarvek. (chuckle) Such a thoughtful boy!

It's also interesting to see how she reacts to Lars' voice versus Tarvek's. Lars isn't attractive for kissing unless he uses his madboy voice, something instinctual is going on there; but when he does use it, it's irresistible. Tarvek's voice has that thrum from the get go for her. I'm not sure where they're going with this, but I find it a little fact to tuck away. I don't recall if she got the same effect from Gil's voice either.

Gil is clearly more attractive than Lars' to her; I felt a bit sorry for Lars when she gets all wrought up because for a moment his profile reminds her of Gil's. Then she goes through the whole, but he's good enough thought process. I am glad they didn't follow through with a bedding there, it would have been just a bit squick for me considering how hard Lars fell for her. She's not quite old enough or mature enough here to notice that it's unfair to Lars, which does fit with her age and experience. If they had kept him at the cheerful flirt level of interaction, then I would have been right there with Zeetha, saying he was just about perfect for a first time, being both experienced and kind. I am not trying to say she isn't attracted to Lars; and she certainly likes the kissing, just Gil and Tarvek do more for her than he does.

On the subject of Gil, I was disappointed that they confirmed he didn't do any dating in Paris, too busy with adventures and rescues.

On the subject of Tarvek, I was very amused that Lucrezia had Agatha naked when she was inspecting her new body in the mirror; and that her first clue that Tarvek was someone to be careful of was that he didn't let that distract him from gathering information on her for more than a moment.

Agreed on the disappointment with Gil in Paris - from his reaction every time someone brought up his reputation, I was suspecting this was the case, but I would have liked it otherwise.

I was slightly squicked by how much they escalated Lucrezia's tease/pursuit/whatever you'd call it of Tarvek. It fleshed out her character (heh), but was really creepy.

Being so new to the series and the fandom and with the tvtropes forum being my main exposure, I tend to forget about the rabid anti-Tarvek faction. In my first read, I thought he was a bit confusing but fascinating, and I definitely didn't get Anevka as dangerous as the hints are heading. So I can definitely see your points here.

I'm looking back through the first book to see if Gil's voice is ever addressed - looks like they talk about his eyes, his facial expressions, a couple of times his smell, but never his voice. Agatha's first introduction to him is while she's still under the locket's influence and scared to death - not much time for describing anything.

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Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

T. Stormboy

Mom Sturmvarous

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

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Re: Mom Sturmvarous

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Agatha and Sexuality

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Gil and Paris

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Was Tarvek Really Trying To Save Agatha?

Uncle Selnikov

Re: Uncle Selnikov

favorite added scene

Re: favorite added scene

Re: Uncle Selnikov

Re: Uncle Selnikov

Re: favorite added scene

Re: favorite added scene

Re: Agatha and Sexuality

Re: Agatha and Sexuality

Re: T. Stormboy

Re: Agatha and Sexuality