hippogrif | Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

It just occurred to me last night that clarifying Tarvek's name as Aaronev Tarvek Sturmvoraus; was another subtle way of showing how bound he is by his lineage. The part of his name that is distinctly his own is surrounded by his father's name. It all goes with his theme of being hidden/hiding.

Hmm. That sounded more profound when I was thinking about it.

Anyway, in contrast Gilgamesh's name is not only not his father's name; but clearly comes from his mother's people and is most definitely his own and not a family name, at least in Europa.

And at the same time, he never uses the Aaronev part. So even if history would record him at Prince Aaronev the seventh, that's not how he identifies himself or how anyone who knows him does. Although, that does parallel his father a bit, given how Lucrezia always calls him Wilhelm.

I agree, this felt more profound until I wrote it down too. Guess it's that kind of a topic.

Has Gil ever used Tarvek's given name to date? He's addressed Gil by nickname twice in the castle, but I don't think Gil's ever done it. (I'm taking that as an indication of how quick he is to forgive and how Tarvek's far more ready to resume a friendship than Gil is, but YMMV)

I also am just beginning to think it's a sign of an amusing/depressing tendency originating with Klaus, of seeing family as far more totally controlling than even Tarvek with his aristocratic bias does. Between writing off all Mongfish (with the possible exception of Theo) and all Sturmvoraus...

Klaus is beginning to sound prejudiced in the most fundamental sense of the word: he treats family as though it's a useful and reliable label or brand name sparing him the need to deeply question how and why each individual functions. Family allows him to prejudge. Gil choosing to distance himself as much as he does with the surname or the full name, but not just "Hey, Tarv," seems possibly indicative of falling into the same mental trap.

I wonder if that adds another reason why Klaus tests Gil so harshly - he's family, and as he sees it they will be judged as a unit. Gil reflects on him, and can NOT be seen as a weakness. So the testing is not just looking to the future and preparing Gil to take his place, but also maintaining the current family image. Keeping him hidden might have been sparing him for a while.

Re: Tarvek Detail

hippogrif - 2012-04-19 20:14 (UTC) - Expand

I am wondering how Theo's family story intertwines with the Heterodyne Boys and/or the other Mongfishes. I suspect we're not really going to get into that, but I would like to know just how long Theo's been under Klaus' care, and I'd love to know who (if anyone) his parents associated with. He does seem to have a special exemption from Klaus' "Mongfish=EVIL" thinking. Uncharitably, maybe because he isn't a girl? Or maybe just because he's been raised on Castle Wulfenbach, but being raised away from family influences doesn't seem to come into Klaus' thinking about Agatha very often (once, if I remember correctly).

Re: Theo

hippogrif - 2012-04-24 20:22 (UTC) - Expand

He's fighting for his own identity, so that could be it; or, well, lots of families with family names use some sort of different nickname etc to differentiate them. So.

I think Gil has used Tarvek's name; but I'd have to check to be certain. They both certainly use surnames as names; I think it's a guy thing, not necessarily an intimacy thing though.

I'd agree with you on the intimacy thing if it weren't for Tarvek slipping those two times. The two times he addresses "Gil" are when Gil's dying after the SVV and when they discover Von Pinn in the basement. Both times he's concerned and upset. In general, yes, a guy thing, but a guy thing that maintains a distance.

I was thinking about where the Foglios get their names, for characters meant to be disposed of they seem to play with the names. Tarvek was originally meant to be killed, so I wondered what they might have done. Tarvek is not a name anywhere that is obvious; and it occurred to me that it might be some sort of acronym. Then my sleepy brain jumped to Titus Andronicus (R) Valois (E) King. I can't quite make it work; but maybe someone cleverer than I am could make a better guess?

One thing new did come in through in the novel that I think is new, or at least an elaboration on the revelation of Professor Mittlemind: not all sparking is engineering/mecha/med. Tarvek and Andronicus both appear to be natural poli-sci/social science sparks. They're both very clearly presented as sparky thinking in terms of social analysis and planning, with new data setting off cascades of new and revised plans.

In a real sense this is in direct opposition to Klaus, who's capable, but in a very non-intuitive sense. Klaus does not LIKE politics, and there are some real indications that on some levels he just does not get it. Much of his success seems to rise out of trying to simply circumvent political maneuvering, or prevent others from indulging. That doesn't mean he's utterly inept, but the majority of his actions seem dedicated to preventing other people from getting or having leverage in the first place, or removing that leverage from them and claiming it for himself, rather than in trying to work with and guide the natural leverage people and groups accrue.

Andronicus is clearly shown as trying to work "with the grain" of his subjects, taking advantage of their natural proclivities and simply trying to direct them into useful--or at least harmless--activities. Tarvek's plans, to the limited degree we've seen them, and some of his analysis, which we've seen more of, is similar: it's based on knowing what people are like, what they want and need, and figuring a way to use that to advantage.

So...whatever other skills and spark he's got, Tarvek's Andronicus' descendent in having the political spark.

It would be interesting to know for sure how his military spark stacks up to Klaus': that's another non-mecha area of brilliance, and one Klaus actually has down quite well. Sigh. Given the current state of the plot lines, we may get to see that in action.

Agreed. That is a strong similarity between Andronicus and Tarvek. I suspect that Tarvek would enjoy governance, he and Boris would make a spectacular team. As part of the lead triad, it is more his strength than either Gil's or Agatha's.

I'd like to see Krosp and Tarvek working on a military exercise together, at the least Krosp could help nudge Tarvek's Spark into interesting paths. My best guess is that while Tarvek has a stronger military spark, Klaus' experience will let him beat Tarvek. If Klaus decides he doesn't want to fight effectively, and only does so under Lu's duress, then Tarvek could win. Not sure what could bring that about, but the Foglios have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to surprise me.

I have to say, I'm not at all sure what Tarvek's plan was, and given the whole spark-slaver wasp thing I am uneasy.

The bottom line is that I can honestly see Tarvek as he starts out feeling that Klaus is in every way a valid candidate for wasping. Klaus IS a usurper, he HAS put together a far from stable Europan union, he has kept the Fifty Families from what many would consider their "proper" national sphere while letting them pretty much do what they like without checks within their dominions, and from Tarvek's POV he's proven himself to be unreliable, unjust, and unlikely to be willing to reason or compromise...if only because Klaus doesn't DO politics, and politics is how Tarvek sees the world working.

If the way to ensure a stable union and a peaceable transfer of power was by way of a spark-wasp, I can see Tarvek deciding that, yes, this was the best answer. But we've seen the cost, and we disagree. So we're left with the real possibility that Tarvek gave the spark-slaver wasp to the Giesters fully intending to act on the plan he presented.

The trouble is, we also know that the current state of affairs was in no way what Tarvek wanted or aimed at...and the way he laid out was never confirmed as his actual intent. So much of what he did in Sturmhalten was a juggling act trying to survive far too many factions.

It's just...if Gil decides that Klaus' wasping, and his (possible) death are Tarvek's fault, I can't for the life of me decide if he's right or wrong. Mostly wrong, in that Lucrezia-in-Agatha's the one who opted to wasp Klaus then and there. But...

And then there's Lunevka. I don't know if Tarvek even realizes she's still out there. But I also don't know who he thinks is puppet-mastering Klaus. He knows someone is...his reaction to realizing Klaus was wasped was too extreme for me to doubt it. He knows SOME Lu has control. But who does he think it is? Zola doesn't have the voice. At least, we don't think so.

I wish I knew that little bit more. Because the trouble is, if Klaus does die, Gil's going to be entirely within his rights to consider Tarvek responsible even if this is in no way what Tarvek wanted or was aiming for--just really, really crappy collateral damage. Nor is Gil ever likely to accept that Tarvek's own goals and motives were not necessarily "evil."

I don't know what Tarvek's plan was either, wouldn't it be nice to know? I agree that for practical purposes, if Tarvek felt wasping Klaus was the lesser evil he might plan to do it; but I think he would have to expect some large amount of bad consequences to leaving Klaus free in order to consider it (civil war for example). Thus, if it was part of his plan, I would guess that it was a worst case back-up part of the plan. I'm not sure that in that case I could even disagree with the boy myself.

Even so, Gil has a right to be deeply, coldly angry with Tarvek even if Klaus doesn't die; because Klaus has been wasped and Tarvek was an integral part of the chain of events leading to that consequence. Certainly we've seen Gil be furious with far less reason in canon. I suspect Klaus himself would find it easier to forgive Tarvek, and he's no mush-bunny. It certainly provides excellent plot points for the Foglios to use, again with the both sides have *reason* for their behavior, reason we can understand and empathize with.

Now, we have seen Agatha forgive Von Pinn for killing her parents; and both boys have forgiven Agatha for hurting Von Pinn so very badly. There's precedent for forgiveness in the story of precisely this situation.

And Gil needs Tarvek, needs him to save Agatha; he must work with him and he knows it. He's had a bit of acceptance and forgiveness already; though while in denial of Klaus being wasped, so it isn't, can't be, the final forgiveness. Gil saved Tarvek, sent him to Agatha in the flyer after Tarvek confessed to plotting to wasp Klaus, so there's been forgiveness for the plan. He didn't even seem particularly angry with Tarvek at that time, after the initial flare of temper in the hallway. So I think, I think that he can work through the knowledge that wasping did indeed happen.

Klaus has raised Gil to be pragmatic, and not to flinch at dark solutions to problems. I think that if Gil can be brought to listen to Tarvek, and is given some time to really digest the whole thing, that he will be able to forgive Tarvek's grey pragmaticism here. Huh? I wonder if that's one reason Gil was so reluctant to believe Klaus had actually been wasped? (It is easier to forgive an evil plan that didn't succeed than one that did.) Because he didn't want that conflict with Tarvek? Of course it's also a horrible fate for his father that would be hard to accept. I wonder if Gil growing the ability to forgive could be one of the points of this plotline?

It will be an easier journey for Gil if Tarvek can make some sort of restitution to Klaus; help him in some way, as Gil made it easier for Agatha by rebuilding her parents. I don't see the pathway here, but I can see that it might exist. The only guess I have is the very unlikely one that if Tarvek can move Klaus's personality into Olga's unoccupied body; the wasping might be undone that way.

I'd love to peek into Tarvek's head and see where he thinks Lunevka is. One of the things that perturbs me is the possible multiplication of Lu's in this story with the expanded parameters of the Summoning Engine. It's so very messy for the plot when there could be umpteen villains. But with that many potential Lu's and Tarvek knowing there might be so many, his concern is well founded. His ability to recognize Lu's personality may be essential if there do get to be a lot of them.

I am very worried that Klaus will die. I am somewhat less worried that Gil will have to do the killing. I am *hoping* that the wasping will be a sufficient stripping away of his parent from Gil, that Klaus will, in fact, not have to die as Agatha's parents and Tarvek's family did for their journeys. It would not surprise me if Bangladesh, as Gil's sister substitute, did die. It's a mark of my own lack of morals, I suspect, that her death wouldn't bother me nearly as much as Klaus's.

Another login, another password, and a new avi to get. Sigh.

Well, here's what struck me on first read:

The whole Storm King/Euphrosynia story has been undermined. It's a popular myth, not the history.

The Muses are a bigger mystery than ever. Were I not already prepared, I would find footnote 42 creepy (pps 224-5). The synergy between them is also ... cosmic.

Now that we have Otilia in a somewhat more voluable state, we might learn something at a critical moment.

The Foglios have grown fond. Of sentence fragments. I hope some editor throws the whole pot of noodles at them--Hey, dot's verra good clam sauce!

We have a bit of new information about Zeetha, and a different tone on her when Agatha appears.

Lu's thought, in italics, on p 329 may tell us a bit more about the nature of The Other, or confirm some hypothesis.

And there's that remark, on p, 323, about Klaus's wife.

Since they are calling out the numbers on Moxana's Tarot deck, I wonder if we should be investigating them, either for a direct connection from the numbers or for the cards tradtionally associated with those numbers. (That we can probably more back to TVT; I don't think it would give away much.)

My sympathy, Greybeard. I am on Dreamwidth because something else pushed me there, but I get tired of getting new passes too.

Tarot Deck numbers: It won't match, because there are 22 major arcana in the deck, and XXX: The Whirlwind won't fit in our world. One more way Europa differs, just as the Muses aren't our Muses.

RE: editors. Their publisher is not giving them a proper edit, appears to have pushed them to get a new book out fast, and the cloud editing they'd hoped for that would have brought this book out better than the first didn't happen. They are apparently aware of the problem and fighting their publishers to try to develop a solution that doesn't bend the publisher out of shape but gets the editing done. It has been suggested that a polite letter to the publishers suggesting that editing would help a lot might be in order. This by way of having suggested somewhat more forcefully to the authors that really, they need to do something about this. Which they do.

Lu's thoughts, added to the far more clear version of her response to Tarvek's pondering on leaving his home, PLUS more clarification about her "new body" and her self-admiration, goes a lot way to tell us just how not-human she's been, and for a long time. Like probably most of Agatha's life, I would guess. I think Agatha's comment that her thoughts are not just mad, but alien compounds that. (grin) Feeling vindicated again: My own hypothesis that Lu-as-we-know-her is an amalgam with something else, and that whatever she was before she begame the Other, she changed in the transition, seems more and more likely to be correct.

The Muses are indeed more awesome...and it worries me that they may have been yanking Tarvek's chain when he sought advice from them. I'm also interested in the backstory on Van Rijn, who would not allow himself to be painted.

I can't say I'm surprised at the new angle on Euphro and Andronicus, but, then, I always assumed that the version we got had been heavily "Opera-ated" on. To me it always did seem more opera fantasy than history, and I expected the "real story" to differ. If nothing else it's too much in the Foglio's meta-theme for the opera to be taken at face value.

I am glad, yes, that Klaus does continue to seem to recall Zanta fondly. And, yes, a more expanded Zeetha.

And it's good to see you here, friend, even if it did make you get another dratted password.

Regarding accounts: I'm using the openid feature. Also I have classes of passwords, where there's an easy theme for me to remember. A bouquet of similiar ones where I just try a few 'til one works if I forget the exact one.

So the Foglios would like us to write a polite letter to their publishers about editing? I'd be happy to do that! Better editing would create a much more pleasant read; and more people would buy the book. Though, as art, the comics are the core of this world.

The Muses

The Other/the Geisters

The Spark itself

The Dyne

At least the first of these three could be explained, in some generic Sci Fi, by the touch of some kind of advanced alien (or plutonic) civilization. The book does nothing to rule these out. Of the four, the only one that I would like to be resolved in this way is The Other/the Geisters.

Even if the Tarot card numbers do not match our deck, they may be a link to something that we can identify in the story.

While the opera is the only version of the story we've gotten so far, it looks like there is a version floating around that seems a bit closer to what we expect based on the prologue. Phil alludes to it: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20110506 - "You - you don't want the one about how he was brought down by the Heterodyne Girl?" "Heh. No." "Good! I could get in real trouble telling that one in this town."

That really makes me wonder how a story of Heterodyne conquest could be problematic in Mechanicsburg. Maybe they're suckers for Storm King stories just like everyone else, and don't want to remember that their Heterodynes caused his downfall. More likely there's a lot more to the story. So many tantalizing details!

On the Tarot deck, didn't one of the footnotes address that Moxana is using a very rare deck that pretty much drove everyone mad? I suspect it conveniently isn't too closely related to anything we'd have to work with.

I wonder how much the Muses have to do with the subsequent crafting of the Storm King story. I wonder whether all the Muses were given the same or similar instructions as Otilia, or if anything she has to tell is really relevant to her alone. I was going to say that using the popular power of myth effectively gets all of Europa helping further their goals, but we don't really know anyone's goals but Otilia.

Yes, the Queen's deck, I think it was made for Albia.

We have some additional info on Zeetha. In particular, her skin is somewhat dark.

The Geisters are albino and seem to live happily underground. Zeetha is not fair-skinned. We've speculated on TVT that Skifander is an underground or domed city, but Zeetha's darker color argues against that.

Possibly; a lot would depend on how long Skifander had been underground and if there was any gene flow between them and darker skinned people.

In a completely dark situation, you can develop albinism without the selection pressure against them from sun damage; however if you start with a dark population, it will take many generations for albinism to take over the population if it does at all. If there's still people from the surface joining the community it will take even longer, as they are unlikely to be albinos and will spread the darker genes.

One of the things that has worried me a little from the start is whether House Sturmvoraus is a classic "kissing cousins" family. While on the one hand I would not mind at all if Tarvek and Violetta turned out to be distant enough for a reasonable marriage, at the same time if the family is too in-bred there's almost no such thing as "distant enough."

We already know that there has been a problem with Valois heirs. They would seem likely to be genetic problems, in that they could be addressed by the Mongfish through prenatal tampering: cleaning up the gene pool sounds probable.

We know now that Selnikov is related to the Sturmvoraus ruling family...and going back I was able to see that he does indeed look like a younger Aaronev, and he has the family red-into-black hair in at least one frame. We also know, though, that he's married to Aaronev's sister. So we've got stronger evidence that the family marries within their own gene-pool.

Then there's Vi. She's of a related family that, on the one hand, has served House Sturmvoraus for generations. But she's still close enough by relationship to call Tarvek "cousin," and vice versa. And she and Tarvek are clearly genetically related...they've both got the hair, eyes, and the same skin tones, if nothing else. We still don't know her surname. It would not, at this point, surprise me if it's Selnikov.

The thing is, I've always wondered a bit about the degree of consanguinity. The way the term "cousin" was used through much of European history, there didn't have to be a very close relationship. But the way most of the world, including Europe, has tended to favor cousin-marriages for social, financial, and political reasons ups the odds of a very inbred household. Indeed, Tarvek may be unusual specifically because ANYONE did a genetic clean-up on him.

In any case, on the one hand, knowing that the Sturmvoraus do seem to marry in ups the questions about Tarvek and Vi's relationship. But knowing how closely they seem to marry in ups the concerns over the whole idea. One cousin-marriage per generation or so does't rock the boat and can even strengthen positive family traits. In livestock it's called "line breeding," and it is a useful technique when used within reason. But get too many generations of too-common and poorly selected in-breeding and you get an ugly mess.

Line-breeding only works if you're willing to do some ruthless selection on the progeny; not ethical with humans in our world, and I really can't see either Tarvek or Vi going along with it even in the rather looser ethical universe of GG. Whatever the technical closeness of their cousinship, they look enough alike to be very close genetically, as you noted, whether through happenstance of drift or multiple generations of cousin marriage.

On the other hand, if the Mongfish could clean up Tarvek's genes prenatally; perhaps someone else also has that skill? That would make genetic problems moot.

Myself, I think neither Tarvek nor Violetta would be happy married to each other. Tarvek is considerably smarter than Vi (witness her inability to see past his previous mask, even with demonstrations) and I suspect that like Gil he needs a woman who can at minimum follow his ideas. Vi also doesn't share his interests (muses) or appreciate sparkiness (twisted courtship rituals) unlike Sleipnir's appreciation for Theo's sparkiness. Tarvek also goes so melty gooshy when he gets to snuggle Agatha, that I think he would want a softer more supportive type of relationship than he'd get with Vi. He's had enough of prickly difficult family, and I don't think he likes it.

She's a very straightforward girl, who likes pretty things and obstacles she can see how to overcome; Tarvek frustrates her no end and sets off her temper, which I don't think she enjoys either. She will be much happier with a non-spark fellow. I like her with Moloch because he has much the same straightforward solutions to problems; and I think he'd not provoke her temper nearly so much. Back to back in the service of her lady and his, clear goals and a path to get there; that's what Vi wants.

They do love each other under it all; I just really see it as a sibling relationship, not romantic in the least. One that most definitely is better with a fair amount of space available to get away from the other when needed.

Violetta prefers someone more straightforward? Well, might Gil qualify? He certainly CAN be sneaky, but it's not something he drank with his mother's milk.

Yes and no - she would not be a good influence on him, and she wouldn't meet his criteria anyway.

If Gil were not to end up with Agatha and Tarvek really is planning to resurrect Anevka and get Lu out of her head too, Anevka would be a politically useful alternative. She's royal and Sparky, and marrying the opposition is often a useful part of ending wars. Marrying into the recognized Storm King bloodline could only help, too. Not that I think this is in any way likely, but interesting for speculation.

Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Theo

Re: Theo

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail

Re: Tarvek Detail Silliness

Andronicus and Tarvek, Poli-Sci Sparks

Re: Andronicus and Tarvek, Poli-Sci Sparks

Tarvek's original goals...(fret-fret)

Re: Tarvek's original goals...(fret-fret)

First Impressions

Re: First Impressions

Accounts and Editing

Four Mysteries

Re: First Impressions

Re: First Impressions

Re: First Impressions

Zeetha and Skifander

Re: Zeetha and Skifander

European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits

Re: European Marriage Habits