Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

[hippogrif]

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

Comments

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

OMG,yes! There are so many scenes where I'd like a little more insight into what the characters, but Tarvek in particular, were thinking.

I tend to agree on the idealism and lack of real experience...though it's countered by his very real experience of the nitty-gritty of daily survival among his family and their associates. To me it feels like in some ways he's got the extremes down, but has too little first-hand awareness of the middle ground.

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

[bunnyjadwiga]

It definitely sounds like Anevka may have killed her mother. Whether she also killed Tarvek's mother *could* be up for question: if they are far enough apart in age, it's possible that they are half-sibs. We don't know if Aaronev was married 2x or only once.

Other outre speculations: did "Mummy" try to make Anevka feel guilty about killing "Mummy", or about [possibly] killing Tarvek? Or did "Mummy" try to make someone else feel guilty about killing her?

I'd go with the simple answer, Anevka killed her mom, but with the idea that it could be more complicated.

Re: Agatha and Sexuality

[bunnyjadwiga]

Mind you, if they are going for a one-true-V, then there's going to be something Tarvek's got that Gil doesn't.

However, the fact that both Tarvek and Theo have voices that catch Agatha's attention may point to a blood connection between the Mongfishes and the Sturmvaruses.

Tarvek committed to good

[bunnyjadwiga]

Yes, but the book text makes it very clear that he's been living a bit in a fantasy world where he can fix everything if he just had control. He really only hits the "Ends don't justify the means" point in Castle Heterodyne, when he can find himself surrounded by less-evil characters...

Re: favorite added scene

[bunnyjadwiga]

I still think I'd have rather had Tarvek say she could have her clothes back. But I'm too much like him myself, so Tarvek's my woobie. :)

[bunnyjadwiga]

I keep having this belief that Tarvek may have been manuevering to wasp sparks (like Othar) and troublesome/evil rulers (like the Knights of Jove, his family, etc.) in order to stop them from being evil/oppressing others. It's a common enough variety of magical thinking, even in ethics.

Tarvek is still portrayed as caring about people, in general. It's also been clearly laid out in the novelization that as long as rulers under the Pax Transylvania don't cause trouble beyond their borders, Klaus doesn't care if they oppress their own people. Is this what Tarvek wants to correct?

Or am I reading too much into it?

Re: favorite added scene

[hippogrif]

Yes. I still really miss it. But it also clears up a conflict, in not having to explain how a wasped minion could resist Agatha and be snotty to her.

But, yes. I STILL miss that little touch of Thoughtful Tarvek.

Re: Change or Mistake?

[bunnyjadwiga]

The other thing is that red hair is stereotypically linked with blue eyes. So it's easy to fall into the mental trap of thinking of him with blue eyes.

However, I think for warm-caramel-feeling-producing-eye-contact, brown might be better. :)

Re: Geister prophecy?

[bunnyjadwiga]

If it was Bill, Barry, etc. who showed up, it wouldn't be hard for Lucrezia to tell them who to expect.

[hippogrif]

Klaus has limits. Frex, no explicit slavery, though he's turning a blind eye to a lot of less explicit slavery. Regarding Tarvek's plan: I think it's pretty definite that the first aspect was to beat his father and the Knights of Jove to the punch on existing wasped non-sparks...but most particularly the Geisters. There are several points in the novel when that's clarified enough to make it a safe bet. The fact that Tarvek grew up in the middle of an arms race aimed directly at the existing wasped folks makes that a reasonable goal.

That he also has the goal of undoing wasping is also clarified within reasonable limits...so he's got at least some palliative ambitions all along, not just after Castle Heterodyne. The ends don't always justify the means. However, I do think he may well have felt the only means he had were less than ideal...and that the ends were too vital to be finicky in the short-term.

His ultimate falling in love with Agatha is because she's willing to commit suicide to save Europa. (Gloat-gloat, I DID predict this one! Gleee!!!!) That further pushes me into the belief that he's been an idealist on the subject of trying to do good all along...just in a situation where what he sees as possible is very limited...and colored by his sense that Klaus isn't a much better answer than his father or Lu. He SEEMS to be trying to think outside the existing box. We just don't know quite how, yet.

It's possible he wanted to wasp "bad" Sparks. It's too early to know, dang it. My own sense, though, is that he planned to use existing wasping to get some control over the Geisters, learn enough of the tech to UNDO the existing wasping, and proceed from there. The risk of Klaus actually being wasped by Lucrezia would have seemed vanishingly small at the time he put it forward.

But the thing is, we don't know. Even after the novel, while we can now be more sure he's "good" for at least one plausible value of goodness, we don't now what tools he intended to use, or how he intended to use them, or for how long, or how utterly naive he was being in his planning. Without those all we can do is suspect he meant well for the most part.

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

[bunnyjadwiga]

I found the emphasis on van Rijn's refusal to let any portraits of himself be made somewhat... hm... suspicious. I continue to wonder whether Higgs is in fact van Rijn. Or is he Mongfish related (or both), since both Theo and Tarvek appear to follow his lead...

Re: Spark wasps

[bunnyjadwiga]

Actually, it raises the question of what the relationship between The Other and the Order was when it came to developing those wasps. Were wasps extant before Lucrezia? If not, was the Order involved in developing the Slaver wasps? Because if the spark-slaving-wasps are a new design, not a return to an old design, there may have been something in the original design process (or biomaterial) that prevented Sparks from being successfully wasped (though it's never been clear whether attempts to wasp a Spark don't happen, happen but fail, or happen but kill the Spark.)

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

[claudeng]

Agreed, that seemed like an awfully important detail but we don't have nuch to hang on it. It could fit in with the Tarvek-time-travel theory, too, but I'm hoping that's not the case.

Higgs could certainly pass for Dutch, and he really knew his way around Otilia. The Netherlands and Belgium are outside Klaus' empire, right?

I still don't think Tarvek has any special knowledge about Higgs, I think he's just reacting to the signals Higgs been sending him until he knows what's going on. As long as Higgs is no immediate threat to Agatha or his plans, I think quietly going along with things until he has the situation understood and back under control is exactly how Tarvek would react. He knows Higgs is more than he seems, but he doesn't know any more than we do. Theo much the same.

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

[claudeng]

I hadn't thought of the 2-sisters option. If that's the case, Aaronev and Selnikov are probably still at least cousins or something, since the book describes him as recently related to the royal family (I'd use the actual quote if I had the book handy).

The Selnikovs might even have children - I don't think it's been said anywhere that they don't, they could be in Paris with mama, and might be numbered among the "unpleasant cousins", although that's less likely since Anevka and Tarvek trusted Selnikov enough to be part of their plan. (Apologies for the grammar, I can't seem to disentangle that sentence)

Andronicus and Tarvek, Poli-Sci Sparks

[hippogrif]

One thing new did come in through in the novel that I think is new, or at least an elaboration on the revelation of Professor Mittlemind: not all sparking is engineering/mecha/med. Tarvek and Andronicus both appear to be natural poli-sci/social science sparks. They're both very clearly presented as sparky thinking in terms of social analysis and planning, with new data setting off cascades of new and revised plans.

In a real sense this is in direct opposition to Klaus, who's capable, but in a very non-intuitive sense. Klaus does not LIKE politics, and there are some real indications that on some levels he just does not get it. Much of his success seems to rise out of trying to simply circumvent political maneuvering, or prevent others from indulging. That doesn't mean he's utterly inept, but the majority of his actions seem dedicated to preventing other people from getting or having leverage in the first place, or removing that leverage from them and claiming it for himself, rather than in trying to work with and guide the natural leverage people and groups accrue.

Andronicus is clearly shown as trying to work "with the grain" of his subjects, taking advantage of their natural proclivities and simply trying to direct them into useful--or at least harmless--activities. Tarvek's plans, to the limited degree we've seen them, and some of his analysis, which we've seen more of, is similar: it's based on knowing what people are like, what they want and need, and figuring a way to use that to advantage.

So...whatever other skills and spark he's got, Tarvek's Andronicus' descendent in having the political spark.

It would be interesting to know for sure how his military spark stacks up to Klaus': that's another non-mecha area of brilliance, and one Klaus actually has down quite well. Sigh. Given the current state of the plot lines, we may get to see that in action.

Re: T. Stormboy

[bunnyjadwiga]

Yes, I think that Tarvek has been thinking about wasping Sparks solely in the context of EVIL sparks. In some ways, he and Othar are rather alike, given their idealism, romance, and perspective issues. However, when it comes right down to it, Tarvek's _experience_ has been far more gritty than Gil's, even though Gil's been trained in sneaky and has managed to be a hero.

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

[bunnyjadwiga]

I'd buy that except that Moloch (trained minion), Zeetha, Violetta, Sleipnir, Gil, and the other prisoners don't seem to have the "oh, better not ask" response to Higgs, so why Theo and Tarvek?

Re: Theo

[hippogrif]

I do hope we learn more about Theo and his own family. I always felt that his trip with Sliepnir to find his father's secret lab would make a GREAT spin-off story.

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

One of the sad things, though--or balancing things, anyway--is that Gil's got similar screaming blind spots. Among others he's so entirely Klaus-partisan it's like he can't conceive of anyone opposing Klaus without also being evil or sublimely stupid. Which is a pity: Klaus is very good, but he's been clearly set up to have created some serious problems and made enemies he need not have made. There are non-evil reasons to oppose him...and Tarvek's witness to a number of them.

Re: T. Stormboy

[bunnyjadwiga]

Well, yes, but I'm really really getting bloody tired of Gil being blind and Tarvek being clever, self-sacrificing and kind in the webcomic timeline. Ok, yes, Tarvek still hasn't mentioned LuNevka which is a major fault.

I want to see Gil be all clever and sweet and sneaky and Tarvek show his blind spot. Which I think will be "I didn't want you guys to hate me..." Tarvek is acting way too grown up in the webcomic timeline compared to Gil, and it's beginning to grate on me, no matter how much I love the character.

Re: Mom Sturmvarous

[bunnyjadwiga]

If Selinkov's lands and titles go to a nephew ("A Star Witness is Revived"), we can be reasonably sure he has no sons. He might have a daughter, but that seems unlikely unless she's too young to have clothes Anevka would want to borrow.

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

[claudeng]

Higgs hasn't pulled out the active looming at anyone but Tarvek, so far as I remember. In fact, how much of his scary awesomeness has anyone in your list witnessed?

Gil's the only one who knows the story of him saving Klaus. Tarvek was the only one who saw him dismantle Otilia one-handed. Theo can tell Higgs is lying about the map, but that doesn't tell him much. Zeetha sees him fight with Jagers, he's as fast as she is chasing Zola, and he can jump down the same holes. She treats him as an equal. We only see Violetta interact with him briefly after he really goes to town on Zola in the plant room - she's working with him and doesn't seem ridiculously impressed, but she's awfully fast herself. Gil, Tarvek, and Agatha see him get up and salute when he should be mostly exsanguinated.

Most of them are interacting with him perfectly reasonably, given what they've seen of him. Tarvek is the only one who's seen him go really superhuman more than once, been loomed at by him twice, and obviously has a theory, but I think it's based just on what he's observed, not any background information.

Also, I suspect Higgs is really good at fading into the background when he wants to. It'd be a survival skill for him.

Gil

[lightningnettle.livejournal.com]

I think he has been less grown up; this latest twist with the weasel labelling *him* as wasped is his time to mature. It's time for his coming-of-age arc; I'm waiting to get back to CW and see what happens with him, I also dread it as well, so mixed feelings here.

Re: My Higg's Hypothesis

[claudeng]

I realized I forgot Zeetha's "How indeed?" reaction - she does realize there's something up with Higgs, but it doesn't seem to affect how she treats him. Maybe that just makes him more interesting, I guess.

Re: Gil

[hippogrif]

Unless there's a VERY thick, chewy backstory lurking for us, Gil should be "younger" than Tarvek. While his life has not been problem free, he's never had to handle the kinds of challenge Tarvek's lived with.

He appears to have more experience of the wide world, and he's adventured more. But he appears to have adventured for the most part with Bang as backup, and in the knowledge that he could call for Dad's rescue...or that Bang would call for him if he were stuck. He doesn't appear to have lost close friends or family in the sense Tarvek has, much less make life-and-death choices regarding them. He's been able to trust his nearest and dearest for the most part: the testing from Klaus and the lapse in correspondence appear to be the biggest angers and griefs he's faced *except* for turning Tarvek in. He accuses Tarvek of being a pampered aristo, but so far Gil looks far more convincing in that role: he's had pretty nearly all the benefits of aristocracy--education, security, family/friends, enormous resources and freedom, even great power if he needed it--and until very recently he appears to have had few of the burdens. He's been truly free to be a young man with relatively few fears, cares, or obligations.

Tarvek appears to have never had anything like that, barring perhaps a limited version of it on Castle Wulfenbach. He was born to play a role, and knew it. He was born to be a political animal, and was never spared that fact--as is demonstrated by why he was sent away from CW. He has been having to find some way to juggle loss, fear, loneliness and duty for 20-some years, with so near as we can tell no one except Anevka to "trust," and we've seen how far he ever really trusted Anevka. While he appears not to have traveled much beyond his brief stint in Paris, he seems to have made a point of becoming deeply aware of and educated in the various behaviors and motives of his peers around Europa. Where Gil has only faced assassination attempts for the past few months, Tarvek's been facing them for the past three years...and struggling to find ways to protect the people he loves without giving the one protective game he's got away. And through it all he's known he might be the only person in a position to try to turn what, from his POV, was a rising tide of potential catastrophe, between Klaus on one hand and the Knights of Jove on the other.

Gil *should* be younger and less mature than Tarvek, given the information to date. More information could change that, but I am currently expecting the present arc to force Gil to mature as he loses the security and support he had, sees his father not only falling to an enemy, but warped into being an enemy himself. For the first time Gil is going to have to make the kinds of life-and-death choices Tarvek's been making at least since the time of Anevka's "accident."

I tend to agree that Tarvek's blind spot will prove to be a deep fear that he can't trust, can't be loved, and can't be happy--enough so that he'll deal himself out of the game too easily. He's going to be "immature" in the things that require trust and faith that you're loved and supported. But it's truly no wonder that Gil's still a child in comparison with Tarvek, regarding overall maturity.

It's like William Blake's choice to write "Songs of Innocence" and "Songs of Experience," contrasting innocence with experience of the world rather than with sin-as-such. Gil's "innocent" in many ways. Tarvek's "experienced" in many of those ways.

On the other hand, we get to see Gil grow up. What I think we may be allowed to see--I HOPE we're allowed to see--is Tarvek being allowed to rediscover the 8-year-old who was lost to Klaus' choice to exile the Sturmvoraus boy.