Discussion thread for Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess. Beware, Here There be SPOILERS

[hippogrif]

Welcome.

This is a thread for discussing the Girl Genius novelization Agatha H. and the Clockwork Princess, as well as all Girl Genius in general. The subject matter is the property of Phil and Kaja Foglio.

No spoilers are required in this thread. The assumption is you've read the material already. That is why this thread exists--to provide a place for people to talk without having to try to avoid giving away secrets.

I own this account. If you're rude or a jackass, I will delete your post. If you're debating in good faith and not annoying the natives, I won't. If people really can't behave, I'll delete the whole fershlugginer thread.

Have fun. Talk at will. If you don't want spoilers, run away now.

Hippogrif.

Comments

T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

Ok, I think we've just been given fairly good grounds for assuming that Tarvek's been a "true revolutionary" for some time...or that, possibly, be becomes one as a result of this story. But I'm betting on the prior possibility.

Those of you who know me already know I thought this possible, based on his behavior and comments here: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091012, and because of his more reliable areas of concern and dedication. He's definitely upset about Klaus' status as an illegitimate ruler, he seems to honestly see the Storm King as an important predecessor for more than pure politics, and I long felt that his reaction to Agatha might well be based on her willingness to sacrifice her own life for the good of Europa... even if he did sabotage her effort. On top of that we never did find out what he saw as his "work" to do in Paris...one of the few places in Europa not utterly under Klaus' command. Tarvek, to me, seemed plausible as a serious, philosophy driven revolutionary, blending "resistance" elements with "aristo duty" elements in odd and fun ways.

I also always suspected they were playing a few "Percy Blakeny/Scarlet Pimpernel" games with his foppishness, dress sense, and cover role as the utter incompetent. The idea of him working not just to save his own life, but to further the revolution and "save Europa" always seemed in keeping with the Fs' sense of humor, and with Tarvek's personality.


The current novel seems, to me, to actually stress that more clearly. The Foglios write him as clearly making his final shift to loving Agatha as a response to her recording of her plea to Klaus and her willingness to die to save the nation. Again, yes, he overturns that, but for reasons he never gets to explain to her in full.

He's also shown a bit more fully moving into his title and position, and definitely reading to Agatha as taking his responsibilities very seriously indeed. "Defender of Balan's Gap and Protector of the East," as I recall. (My Kindle is recharging in the other room and I'm too lazy to be sure I got that word for word.)

Finally, there's the heading quote for the final chapter...an impassioned call for Europa to rise up in the memory of the Heterodyne Boys and turn back the "monsters" who have arisen. Very revolutionary prose, of its type. It even made me think a few "Give me liberty or give me death" thoughts. It's attributed to... one "T. Stormboy", and is published in "The Paris Review of Sorrowful Reflections Without Merit"...at least, that's what Babelfish and my remnant of high school French make of "La Revue Parisienne des Reflexions Chagrines et Sans Merite" (accents missing, due to utter failure to know how to insert them in this program).

The sentiments, the tie to Paris (and we already know Tarvek keeps up with Parisian journals that interest him because he mentions one here: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091016), and the rather obvious nom de resistance, combined with everything else we've already seen, and that the current novel reveals about his personality as seen by Agatha, seems to add up to Tarvek having been functioning as a real and committed revolutionary for some time...and very possibly with real personal dedication, not just political ambition.

Anyone else see that as a real option at this point?

Re: T. Stormboy

[claudeng]

I LIKE that. I thought that passage was odd and scanned oddly but didn't know what to make of it. If it is him, I wonder when it's supposed to be published - something he's already done, or something he will do?

My one halfhearted gripe with the novel as a whole is that it undermined Tarvek masquerading as the incompetent fop. Vrin said something about him being annoying but spineless, but most of the time the reader sees Tarvek through Lucrezia's pov, who's seeing right through his mask. So we don't really get the effect of the mask in the first place. The reason it's halfhearted is the other half of me loves all the new Tarvek description.

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

Agreed, but somewhat quietly. My take is that they figured that at this point the gig is about up anyway, and that by giving us more insight they could counterbalance some of the real in-fandom problems that developed as a result of leaving him looking like a complete crumb-bum. Even after years of them slowly pulling back the veil, there are still people who are certain he's a complete rotter.

I know why they did it the way they did the first time. But I also suspect that this was a good and reasonable time to provide a corrective, as the secret's less secret now in any case. It allowed them to do a number of things, including what you mention below: establish Anevka far more clearly as a dangerous villainess for some time.

Me, I'm curious whether she dinged Mummy before or after her robotification.

Re: T. Stormboy

[claudeng]

Being so new to the series and the fandom and with the tvtropes forum being my main exposure, I tend to forget about the rabid anti-Tarvek faction. In my first read, I thought he was a bit confusing but fascinating, and I definitely didn't get Anevka as dangerous as the hints are heading. So I can definitely see your points here.

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

(Shrug) Fandoms all get wankers as well as saner if equally obsessive wonks (says the ultimate Tarvek wonk). But Tarvek really did manage to generate outright chittering hatred from some folks, and a LOT of people who were sure from the very start that what they thought they saw was the only possible interpretation. Some were, shall we say, both partisan and very rude about anyone who suggested that there might be more going on?

The thing is, I do think I see what happened; the Fs were trying so hard to present mysteries and do a slow developing plot, relationship, and thematic line that they were unable to reckon with the real-time responses of fans who were seeing it in page at a time peep-show format, who adored Gil, and who were making some very false assumptions about the form and genre conventions that would pertain. The result was that many, many people left no room in their textual processing for the eternal question mark, or the new fact that might adjust their thinking. And many fans love nothing better than to cheer for their team.

The novel is letting them try to compensate for the blindness and factionalism that did grow up.

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

I do want to add that "revolutionary," "resistance fighter," and "conservative aristo idealist" all blur together in this situation. He's a revolutionary because he's rebelling against Klaus, a resistance fighter for the same reason, and a conservative aristo idealist because he seems to possibly be allied with an old and romantic view of the aristocrat as both ruler and servant to the people, whose lives and rights he defends.

Given that Klaus HAS been trying to unravel the old aristo system, and has used a number of questionable methods for doing so, the Fifty Families have some legitimate beefs, for all their own flaws and failings. So Tarvek seeing himself as both defending Europa and its people, and also defending the Fifty Families and their way of life, makes sense -- as does Percy Blakeny saving the French aristos from The Terror and Madame Guillotine.

Re: T. Stormboy

[sffcorgi]

He's been trying to give it balance, I'd rather say. The Fifty's beefs is that they aren't allowed to run rampant over everybody else anymore - the Empire actually seems to have two rules after all. The big one is, of course, no infighting. The second one, which would be interesting to look at in more detail (like what isn't?) is 'No slavery'.

Given that the individual fiefdoms are not micro-managed, it makes one wonder where the line is drawn between peasant-serf and slave... and what parameters exist for getting them into those schools which keep being built.

Re: T. Stormboy

[bunnyjadwiga]

I agree that Tarvek's been plotting revolution-- but I also maintain, as I always have, that he's been way too idealistic. He's young and the chance to succeed at this has been sometime in the misty future for him. The book shows his thinking as appropriately young and unformed, which I like. I can't wait to see what the text book does with what he's thinking about when he says "I wish to brood in peace."

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

OMG,yes! There are so many scenes where I'd like a little more insight into what the characters, but Tarvek in particular, were thinking.

I tend to agree on the idealism and lack of real experience...though it's countered by his very real experience of the nitty-gritty of daily survival among his family and their associates. To me it feels like in some ways he's got the extremes down, but has too little first-hand awareness of the middle ground.

Re: T. Stormboy

[bunnyjadwiga]

Yes, I think that Tarvek has been thinking about wasping Sparks solely in the context of EVIL sparks. In some ways, he and Othar are rather alike, given their idealism, romance, and perspective issues. However, when it comes right down to it, Tarvek's _experience_ has been far more gritty than Gil's, even though Gil's been trained in sneaky and has managed to be a hero.

Re: T. Stormboy

[hippogrif]

One of the sad things, though--or balancing things, anyway--is that Gil's got similar screaming blind spots. Among others he's so entirely Klaus-partisan it's like he can't conceive of anyone opposing Klaus without also being evil or sublimely stupid. Which is a pity: Klaus is very good, but he's been clearly set up to have created some serious problems and made enemies he need not have made. There are non-evil reasons to oppose him...and Tarvek's witness to a number of them.

Re: T. Stormboy

[bunnyjadwiga]

Well, yes, but I'm really really getting bloody tired of Gil being blind and Tarvek being clever, self-sacrificing and kind in the webcomic timeline. Ok, yes, Tarvek still hasn't mentioned LuNevka which is a major fault.

I want to see Gil be all clever and sweet and sneaky and Tarvek show his blind spot. Which I think will be "I didn't want you guys to hate me..." Tarvek is acting way too grown up in the webcomic timeline compared to Gil, and it's beginning to grate on me, no matter how much I love the character.

Gil

[lightningnettle.livejournal.com]

I think he has been less grown up; this latest twist with the weasel labelling *him* as wasped is his time to mature. It's time for his coming-of-age arc; I'm waiting to get back to CW and see what happens with him, I also dread it as well, so mixed feelings here.

Re: Gil

[hippogrif]

Unless there's a VERY thick, chewy backstory lurking for us, Gil should be "younger" than Tarvek. While his life has not been problem free, he's never had to handle the kinds of challenge Tarvek's lived with.

He appears to have more experience of the wide world, and he's adventured more. But he appears to have adventured for the most part with Bang as backup, and in the knowledge that he could call for Dad's rescue...or that Bang would call for him if he were stuck. He doesn't appear to have lost close friends or family in the sense Tarvek has, much less make life-and-death choices regarding them. He's been able to trust his nearest and dearest for the most part: the testing from Klaus and the lapse in correspondence appear to be the biggest angers and griefs he's faced *except* for turning Tarvek in. He accuses Tarvek of being a pampered aristo, but so far Gil looks far more convincing in that role: he's had pretty nearly all the benefits of aristocracy--education, security, family/friends, enormous resources and freedom, even great power if he needed it--and until very recently he appears to have had few of the burdens. He's been truly free to be a young man with relatively few fears, cares, or obligations.

Tarvek appears to have never had anything like that, barring perhaps a limited version of it on Castle Wulfenbach. He was born to play a role, and knew it. He was born to be a political animal, and was never spared that fact--as is demonstrated by why he was sent away from CW. He has been having to find some way to juggle loss, fear, loneliness and duty for 20-some years, with so near as we can tell no one except Anevka to "trust," and we've seen how far he ever really trusted Anevka. While he appears not to have traveled much beyond his brief stint in Paris, he seems to have made a point of becoming deeply aware of and educated in the various behaviors and motives of his peers around Europa. Where Gil has only faced assassination attempts for the past few months, Tarvek's been facing them for the past three years...and struggling to find ways to protect the people he loves without giving the one protective game he's got away. And through it all he's known he might be the only person in a position to try to turn what, from his POV, was a rising tide of potential catastrophe, between Klaus on one hand and the Knights of Jove on the other.

Gil *should* be younger and less mature than Tarvek, given the information to date. More information could change that, but I am currently expecting the present arc to force Gil to mature as he loses the security and support he had, sees his father not only falling to an enemy, but warped into being an enemy himself. For the first time Gil is going to have to make the kinds of life-and-death choices Tarvek's been making at least since the time of Anevka's "accident."

I tend to agree that Tarvek's blind spot will prove to be a deep fear that he can't trust, can't be loved, and can't be happy--enough so that he'll deal himself out of the game too easily. He's going to be "immature" in the things that require trust and faith that you're loved and supported. But it's truly no wonder that Gil's still a child in comparison with Tarvek, regarding overall maturity.

It's like William Blake's choice to write "Songs of Innocence" and "Songs of Experience," contrasting innocence with experience of the world rather than with sin-as-such. Gil's "innocent" in many ways. Tarvek's "experienced" in many of those ways.

On the other hand, we get to see Gil grow up. What I think we may be allowed to see--I HOPE we're allowed to see--is Tarvek being allowed to rediscover the 8-year-old who was lost to Klaus' choice to exile the Sturmvoraus boy.

Re: Gil

[lightningnettle.livejournal.com]

I agree that Gil is being deliberately bereft of his family, friends, and base of support right now. Both the others have already been through this, though Gil is working on restoring Agatha's family. Both the others grew from the experience, but it's not a pleasant way to mature, even though needed for the story.

One of the things I adore about Gil is his playfulness; I hope he doesn't lose it in this arc, it would be good to see him help Tarvek play again.

I believe Agatha will help Tarvek learn that he is loved and supported, she is very loyal. Whether it ends in a romantic relationship at the end or not, I think she will continue to love him at least as a friend. It is something that needs time and experience to really sink in. Tarvek now has significantly nicer allies than he had before, something I think will make him a much happier person overall.

Re: T. Stormboy

[claudeng]

Back to the T. Stormboy passage - I finally decided to reread the first book, and the last chapter quote jumped out at me. Chapter 10's quote is a children's rhyme about how the Heterodynes are going to return and make things right - hard not to see this as a response to that.